Shepherd Tools *LINK*

Re: Shepherd Tools

Frank D. in Montreal

>That's a shame.

I'm out 4 kits (2 for me, 2 for friends), but I heard that if you bought by credit card you can get your money back if you didn't receive the merchandise. I haven't checked this yet though. Also apparently you need some proof that the company has gone bankrupt. If anyone sees anything, articles, a letter from Doug or Ben, whatever, announcing the bankruptcy I'd appreciate the info; it might help others who are in the same situation as me.

Re: Shepherd Tools

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I had planned on saving my money and buying one of their kits, but I guess maybe I'll have to build my own someday now. I am ending up spending about as much money to fix up my boat, so would not have had the money till the end of this year anyway ;) I had to make a decision whether to spend the money on the boat or the plane, and figured I would get a lot more use out of the boat, and seems now that I made a good decision.

A lot of things have been said on the power tool forum that I think are undeserved and just plain mean. Very few artists are good business people, and to run a business with such a small market would be very tough in today's world where you need a lot of cash flowing. 80% of all businesses fail in the first few years, and I think when they do fail they are a good experience for the people trying to run them. People can learn some lessons and move on. It is a shame that a number of people lost money on the deal, and I wish them the best of luck in getting it back. But here is something that might chear you up; you probably didn't lose $8,000 on the deal. The company I work for bought a granite counter from a small company that ended up screwing it up totally, had to be redone and they filed bankruptcy. So we were out $8000 to get the thing replaced. This is the world we live in.

Agree

Frank D. in Montreal

>I didn't read what's on the other forum but I have read several comments elsewhere that were quite harsh. While they did make a lot of unkept promises it's not as if they could have announced to everyone that they were in trouble and might never deliver the product. It's never easy to know when to throw in the towel, or how long to keep working to save a company.

After reading Derek's post I spent a few hours going over their Web site. I did feel somwhat sad, especially looking at all those pics with Doug and Ben giving each other the high five; they obviously loved what they did and worked hard at it. There is a lot of info on their site and it will not be lost on me; the videos are easy to download, as well as their instruction manuals for the various kits. Great stuff; get it while it's still there.

Re: Shepherd Tools

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>This sounds like a case of too rapid of a business expansion and too much variety in the product line for such a small business.

Unless you expand on an order of magnitude and not incrementally

in baby steps, this will be the downfall.

The sad part is that all the marketing actually worked..

I was in a similar dilemna and handled it differently.

Norman

Re: Agree

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Hi Frank,

I can attest to their enthusiasm, they totally enjoyed the plane making aspect of the business. When ever I spoke with Doug it was almost impossible to get off the phone in less than an hour, they have deep passion for what they do and we all should be so lucky to know that feeling.

Awhile ago in a FWW issue, Christian Backcourt wrote an article on business and woodworking. It was dry and critical in his comment, but it was real> Christian mentioned as I remember that any woodworker who wanted to be successful in a wood business needed to have some basic business plan and some background to support that. I agree with that and I also think that a business needs a set of eyes to review it�s health on a regular basis.

I know that following the bottom line and the passion we have for what we do are often paths that are not always on the same course all the time...but as Moses said this is the world we live in, and unless we have a business compass to look out for our journey down this avenue it is easy to go adrift following currents and tangents....it gets narrower and narrower to pass through those business constraints if we loose that respect for understanding where we are.

I hope those who lost can recover their costs and I also hope that Ben and Doug can find a way to find their passion again...

By the way Frank, I Joined your woodworking site last night...it was fun to read wood working in French....

Take care,

Jim

Re: Shepherd Tools

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native now in Jax Fl.

>I have a feeling in my bones that says Doug and Ben will be back. Their passion for building planes is just to great for them not to be. They, like many, many of us dreamed of opening their own business and they did. Unfortunately I feel that they where not ready to handle all the challenges that operating your own business can throw at you.

I'm betting that they are off learning more about running a business, rounding up funding and tooling, and that they'll be back. I'm also betting that they have a list of all the folks that they owe either a refund or a product and that these issues will be addressed eventually.

I will say that I cannot understand why they haven't at least contacted the folks that are left hanging and said something like "We'll get with square with you somehow at a future time". Perhaps it's just a feeling of shame and embarressment at failing in this particular endevor that is preventing this.

Todd O.

Spell Check Error!! Opps

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Duh!!

Well I did a spell check on the post above post before I made it, It changed Christian Becksvoort's name on me and I did not catch that....my apologies.

Take care,

Jim

Re: Shepherd Tools

todd hughes

>The way I see it is that Shephard tools have only thierselves to blaime. I have to confess that from day one I thought the bussiness was headed down a tough road, just to much talk and big plans for a new small business. Then last year or so when reports started to come in about unfilled orders yet the company was still trying to drum up even more bussiness with new products etc...even though by all acounts they couldn't fill the orders that they took anybody with any bussiness sence I think knew what was going to be happening.Not rocket science but If you can't fill the orders you have trying to get more orders is only going to make things worse.

I ran a business for years custom making mostly knives and axes and I got behind on orders for sure BUT I never took any money till the item was done [I actually sent the item to the people befor they paid me] and once I got a big enough backorder I stopped advertising since I had more work that I could do. I think if I took the peoples money,never made the item, and kept trying to talk up more people send me more money for items that I'm not going to make either.....ain't we talking a criminal action here, eh?

I don't think there is any big mystery why these guys failed...they took people money for something they couldn't provide.They knew what they could make or supply and when they knew they couldn't supply the pre existing orders they should have stopped taking more orders..or at least the money for the orders. I would tell custamers they could order something but I was 6 months behind or what but don't send any money.I think with these guys they wanted to be big tool makes that offered all kinds of tools but were not ready to be even small time tool makers. Not a suprise but sort of sad I guess but imagine after this they are pretty washed up in the close knit Hand Tool World ......Todd

That too...

Frank D. in Montreal

>Thanks for sharing that Todd. We Canadians tend to resolve our ambivalences by focusing on the positive side. But as you say, all the good will in the world doesn't take away any responsibility for what you actually do. I ordered my planes after winning a contest. I got all the planes I wanted at half price. Ben even encouraged group orders from those who won the contest. This was about 9 months ago. I thought Shepherd was just trying to drum up more business, but I also can't help wondering if they were just trying to sueeze some badly needed funds from unsuspecting (naive?) customers. I'll never know for sure, but that's what happened.

Re: Not necessarily washed up...

John in New Mexico

>By all accounts, they produced a quality product. If they could restart and bring the same level of quality to customer service, they'd have a chance. Acknowledging past failures by, for example, shipping orders before billing might go a long way towards re-building lost good will. Difficult, sure, but not impossible. The mark of professionalism is not avoiding errors, but how quickly and gracefully one can recover from them.

John

You have it half right

Derek

>Todd, I agree with everything you just said. I think this is why-

I am in high-tech. I have been for over 3 decades. Most people in high-tech are one of 2 types:

1) Creative but have a hard time taking things to completion.

2) Capable of taking things to completion but less creative.

This is a generality and there are certainly creative people to can take things through, but it generally is very hard for them and good managers help make things happen with these people (they need management).

Here is my take:

I think that they were type 1 guys. That is why they could not handle the "production phase" of the business. If they understood who they were, they would have set up their business differently so that someone made sure that production happened before new development. They actually liked the new development and hated the production. Likely, neither one could get themselves or the other to do the hard, laborious mangement work of arranging for suppliers for their materials, parts, assembly nad shipping which they could not get themselves to do and the 101 other management tasks they needed to do to succeed in a manufacturing business.

If they designed their business to create new products and market them to existing tool companies, they might have succeeded - if they could find companies who were interested in manufacturing their products. If they had brought in a manager who could do what they could not, they might have succeeded. I have doubts about the size of the market though, and there are certainly other companies in the business whose products affect their potential volume.

Re: You have it half right

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

>There is a lot of truth in what you are both saying.

I can't help but to think of the old saying :

"careful what you wish for".

In business, the initial stages are exciting. Getting the world

to accept your products is a challenge. "If" this has been succesfull, the next stage is dealing with the orders.

This is a different type of challenge.. More technical than a marketing challenge.

Third stage is to increase the product base since the formula works and the initial products were accepted.

This is also succesfull, exciting times!!

More orders to fill now , and development issues begin to creep in.

Parts supplier issues, automation, yield issues, etc..

Then, of course, the paperwork, shipping, administration of the business.

It begins to slowly become overwhelming for a 2 man firm

and unfortunately the whole enchilada begins to crumble.

The "mechanics " of running the business are not exciting,

and get in the way and rob time from production and marketing..

But they need to be dealt with properly.. Also, word of mouth and

even more importantly "negative" word of mouth should have a high

priority in a modern web-based based business.

At this juncture, the businees plan needs to be looked at

again and tuned or scaled back, or modified..

I'm sure Ben and Doug are performing a post-mortem on this

situation as we speak...

The good part about all this is that in the second iteration of this business or the next business, these issues are factored in before even beginning..

And I must add, their business idea was a succesfull one, a great concept!

Norman

Re: Shepherd Tools

Philly

>I find it very sad that their business has reached this position. If you visit their website you can still order planes (and I was looking last week to order a smoother kit)I am shocked that they have not made an announcement of any sort, even if only to say that they cannot take any more orders due to the back-log.

If you take my money when you KNOW you cannot fulfil the order well I'm sorry, I don't care how "passionate" these guys are, it's plain criminal.

These chaps were also pushing "special offers" over on the UK forums recently. Sounds pretty dodgy to me.

A disillusioned Philly

Re: Shepherd Tools

Dennis McDonaugh

>My dad used to say the road to hell is paved with good itentions. Looks like that fits here. Anyone who plunks down $500 and doesn't get the promised product has the right to be pissed and take whatever avenue is available to them to seek a remedy.

Re: Shepherd Tools

Dennis McDonaugh

>Todd, you appear to one of those people who believe the best in people. Bless your heart. Have you been watching this fiasco the past year? First there were late deliveries, then they came out with lots of big plans and promises of better performance AND new products. Then more of the same ensued. Finally, their business goes tango uniform and they still owe lots of people planes or refunds. They send out a terse e-mail saying we can't help you any more and you STILL expect them to come back and make good? I'd like to see it happen, but history isn't on your side.

Re: That too...

Brent Smith

>I think it's a bit of both. Ben and Doug are both great guys, I'vve talked at length to both of them. What happened to their business has happened to many small businesses before. They have a great product, they get great reviews, the orders start comming in. The problems begin when the demand far excedes the supply. There is only so much product that can be manufactured at the time. With a 2 man operation this is not going to improve. They still need to pay the morgage, eat, cloth the family and pay their suppliers and other business expenses. Eventually you realize that the money that's going out is for work that's still a month away from being done. This just keeps getting worse and worse till it becomes like trying to dig a hole in sand.

Where they made their mistake was not realizing what was happening soon enough. They got to the point where they needed new peoples money in order to fulfill past obligations. Then they came up with all kinds of contests, specials and new products hoping to generate enough money to get out of the hole. Problem there is that 2 people can still only generate X amount of work a day.

At some point it had to become obvious to them that they'd never be able to fill all the orders they had. The question is, when they realized it did they decide to grab as much as possible and split, or, did it come as a revelation to them one morning that it was over and by that point there was nothing in their power to do to fix it. From talking to these guys, I believe it was the latter. I don't think either of them are feeling to good about themselves right now.

I do feel for those that had money riding on it being a success, but let's face it, for over a year now it's been all over the net that they were having problems. So anyone that sent them money or didn't challenge a credit card debit, or didn't demand a refund after a lengthly wait, was dealing with them knowing that a certain amount of risk was involved.

Brent

Re: Agree

ThomD

>Chris' article was pretty good, and what I remember most was how little money the woodworking side of the business was actually yielding. Despite "high" prices, and a formidable reputation, it sounded like an expensive hobby.

Re: That too...

ThomD

>In general terms there are two separate issues:

- On the breaking the law side, you have pretty well described the concept: If one knowingly takes money without any hope of delivering services; undertakes various misrepresentations about future business in order to generate cash; etc... there are specific trigger points.

- On the moral front, meaning well goes a long way, ignorance is a defense, and so forth.

So before people go down a similar path of possible moral or legal fault, relative to slander or false witness, they should possibly limit their comments to what they actually know, which may be damaging enough anyway,

Re: Shepherd Tools

Gene DiNardo

>Hello Derek, I was the original poster on the Noisy side. I actually meant to post on Hand tools Board..I read both sides, wasn't keeping track of wich side I was on.

Anyway..as a follow up on that thread;

This is the latest SAD news I recieved from Ben.

This is my first attempt to attach anything hope it works.

"Just so you know--if there was a way to fix this I would--not only is the

business insolvent but I am personally bankrupt as well--totally--I have

sunk everything I had into making this business go--I've lost my house and

car and a 100,000 dollar antique tool collection I once owned. I have

nothing left.

Ben Knebel

----- Original Message -----

From: Ben Knebel

To: UBEANE@aol.com

Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:21 PM

Subject: Re: ORDER CANCELLATION

I regret that I must inform you that Shepherd Tool is no longer in business. It is insolvent.

We can be of no further assistance to you.

Sincerely Ben

----- Original Message -----

From: UBEANE@aol.com

To: bknebel@cogeco.ca

Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 9:49 PM

Subject: ORDER CANCELLATION

Please CANCEL my order for a Norris A6 Kit.

Do NOT process order.

Do NOT charge my credit card.

Please confirm order cancellation.

Gene DiNardo

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Re: about 70%... on the dollar

ThomD

>Another thing that has really hurt in the last year is the fall of the US dollar. Good for me as mostly an importer, but you guys are paying roughly 70 cents on the dollar these days. So a number of guys who do fixed price business in the US like Oneway, and anyone with a US dollar catalogue, are getting paid a lot less. There are ways of hedging currency exposure but not the long term trend or small scale.

And a possible warning to our friends in the US, on a small format, it's about twice as difficult and expensive up here. A mill costs me 3500-4500 that cost 1500 in the US, and there isn't much second hand stuff people tended to ship it south when the dollar was strong. A medium bottle of argon Gas costs me 60 buck, vs about 25. So if the business model sounds barely affordable to you...

Re: Shepherd Tools

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>They were god guys! Seemed to be very enthusiastic. I was quite impressed when they offered to make a batch of thicker blades for those who thought they wanted a tighter mouth on their infill planes.

I think the attitude was there but they tried to do too much and spread themselves out too thin.

I am sure they will land on their feet and who knows maybe we will see them participating again on the forums

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: That too...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Indeed. I think they simply didn't charge enough to hire a person or two to do the grunt work. If you're working from your own boot straps, it is vital that you not undercharge or get too cheap to pay someone else to do some of the work.

As to Chris' business, it's like consulting. If one client doesn't pay or one big project goes late, you're in trouble. The only way to do this is to have many people, many projects, many clients, so the goal for a small consulting type business is to do a lot of it. Now someone may not want to deal with all the bother of hiring and managing employees, but it's vital to spread the risks.

Of course, if the idea is to supplement an income, the rules are not so vital. You can make a little bit as an individual.

Pam

Yes

Frank D. in Montreal

>I agree Brent that they are very nice guys and I feel more for them than for any money I might have lost. I was proud of them as Canadian planemakers, and even if I knew it was risky (I did know that I would wait a long time before I saw my kits) I still wanted to give them my business. But I must admit that I was a bit puzzled as to why they were having contests and sales if things were so bad. With hindsight I still wonder. I must also say in their favor that they sent me three kits (out of seven) a few months ago, as well as a blade about a month ago. I don't know if they knew the end was near, or if a creditor decided to foreclose all of a sudden, but they were apparently still doing what they could to get stuff out to their customers right down to the end.

As Thom said, it's impossible to know exactly what happened without any word from them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they never their business to take the turn it did in the last year.

Re: That too...

C.R. Miller

>I agree with Thom. No-one here is really in a position of knowing what the circumstances were that forced the company to shut down. I realize there's dismay and a bit of anger from some people, but until there's a press statement on the matter the rest is all speculative.

I didn't personally know Doug or Ben and I can't remember if I ever had email contact with them, but I knew well of their business and looked upon it with some degree of admiration. It's just a shame, I feel, that things have ended up the way they have. My condolences go out to both Doug and Ben, as well as the people who have lost goods or money in the ordeal.