Shepherd Tools *LINK*

Why are things so expensive in Canada?

Derek

>

Re: Shepherd Tools - ugghh

Clay C in Miami

>The problem is that the lack of communication and flat-out misrepresentations leaves their customers not just holding the bag, but feeling misled. I'm sure it's hard to know when to pull the plug, but endlessly ignoring a problem because it is embarrassing or uncomfortable to admit a failure only makes matters worse - a lesson most people learn by about age 12.

I paid for 2 planes ($1250!) through PayPal, and that was paid through MasterCard. Ordinarily, this would leave me with two possibilities for recompense, but because Shepherd got the payment so far in advance, I am now FAR beyond the (MC 60-day, PP 45-day) time limits for submitting a charge-back on the payment. I paid them in December '04, got lots of promises and assurances but no planes, and finally cancelled the order last September. Ben said he would issue the refund in two payments, and I did get one in December -- a check for $450, which was a month late and $175 short. Since then, nothing.

I expect I'll write Mastercard, but I don't have much hope. It is a problem that could recur, though. While Shepherd's practice of charging 100% in advance was particularly heinous, a good many custom makers require 50% or thereabouts up front, and the time involved means that any non-delivery would always occur beyond those limits.

(Sigh ...)

Clay

PS - Thanks to Mr. DiNardo for attaching the correspondence from Ben. My own emails to him have been ignored, and maybe this will be of help to me in dealing with Mastercard.

Re: Why are things so expensive in Canada?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I don't think we can answer that question without getting into a discussion of politics, so let's just drop it.

My hope...

Paul M. in San Diego

>My hope was that all this was simply the most elaborate April fools joke by Rob Lee yet. That Rob was buying up the idea and was going to market Shepherd kits with the reliable manufacturing of Lee Valley. Causing a "shut down" in communications for a couple of weeks before hand would be the ultimate in buzz marketing. And it sure seemed to be working.

But sadly after reading Ben's reply to Gene, I'm no longer holding hope that this is all a hoax. I can't read anything into that note other than a good man that's been beaten.

Come back fighting Ben! There's a lot of us rooting for you!

-- Paul M.

Re: Agree

nap

>Does anyone know the issue the Becksvoort article is in? I tried to find it using the FWW back issues index but could not.

thanks

Production enthusiasm

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>You mentioned their love for new things and their disdain for filling routine orders. Here is a news flash for them--manufacturing is mind numbingly boring. Make 100 of something and then make 100 more. Make them EXACTLY the same or throw out the bad ones. Then make 100 more. Boring repetition month after month. Gotta get your mind around it or do something else. Sorry to see them go--they were clever guys.

Actually it can be explained Bill.

HC Sakman @ Victoria, BC

>Very simple. You said no politics right? I'll stick to it! ;-)

Products for 300 million people are subject to "volume discount".

Products for 30 million people are going for higher price, but on certain items, it works the other way around due to the lesser demand of 30m people, but that happens seldom.

I find wood to be very expensive in the US though. I guess the demand is tremendous.

Chico...

Update on Shepherd

Frank D. in Montreal

>Doug sent me an e-mail today explaining Shepherd's woes since 2005. Things were quite complicated for them, they had a number of problems that hit them in succession. They gave it their best shot it seems and still had their hopes up till the end of February, after which they realized it wasn't going to work, so they stopped responding to orders.

Both of them have lost everything trying to keep Shepherd afloat. But Shepherd might not go bankrupt. It seems that some people might be interested in continuing the company (under which form I really don't know), but Doug says that he and Ben will not be a part of it, nor does he see an opportunity like this starting up again for them.

They feel very bad about what happened, he apologized to me and to everyone that lost out. They wanted to speak about it sooner but legally they couldn't say much until now.

Apparently they will post something on their Web site next week.

That's about all I'm going to say for now. I wanted to ask Doug for permission to post his e-mail but I've given you the jist of it without getting into too much detail about the kind of problems they faced. We'll see what comes up on their site next week.

Frank

Re: Why are things so expensive in Canada?

ThomD

>Actually a lot of the reasons that are "political" like health care, military budgets, or fiscal policy, favour lower costs...

One could suggest a lot of reasons, but at a very basic level, a business plan designed to produce in Canada for a fairly small US market is at some disadvantage, compared to producing in the US for the US market. You can make a case for certain industries to be located in Canada, relative to labour costs, or electrical power costs etc... But to fall in love with some marginal consumer product like planes, buy a lot of the components in the US and ship them back to the US is tough. 37 cent a minute phone rates vs 5 cent. Shipping costs, like in the US you have a flat rate package you can send some pretty heavy planes almost anywhere for what 8 bucks? Might be 20-50 bucks from here. Canada isn't all that expensive, but the cross border stuff is.

One of the main advantages, lower labour costs at higher rates of education, isn't there if you are a one man shop.

Re: Production enthusiasm

Jim Brown

>Right on about production. The reward for a good job completed is even more orders to fill.

Makes me appreciate Steve Knight more than before.

Re: agree partly

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>You say that people have a right to be "pissed". I agree, everyone should live with the freedom to have whatever emotions they wish to have. I just don't see how it does any good to get angry and then make rash accusations that are just plain mean. In my opinion, it is worse to be mean spirited than it is to be a poor business manager. And by all means pursue the refund by whatever means possible. Like I said, I was almost one of the people who lost $500, which is a lot more money to me than it is to a lot of people. I will use it as a lesson; never plunk down more than a certain percentage as a down payment if I order something like this.

Re: Agree

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>I'm pretty sure it's in an old issue of Woodwork...

Same Here

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Hi Frank,

I think I also received the same email. I did have a call from Doug and we spoke for awhile yesterday, I have known him for about 5 years.

He was very down.....for reasons Frank mentioned more detailed information will come out later. Suffice it to say that they both have lost everything....I know that is no comfort to some, but know they went down trying their best.

Take Care,

Jim

Wonder why...

todd hughes

>it looks like thier website is still up and you can still order planes and kits? I would think the first thing they would have done after they knew it was over would be to take it down or at least the page where you order so that more orders ain't placed.Looks like some poor smuck could still send thier money to these guys.

I find it amazing that they could really loose that much money doing this , I don't know but just sounds fishy to me...Todd

Re: Doesn't come up for me...

John in New Mexico

>Their main page that is. Perhaps you're looking at a cached page or you bookmarked the order page and are getting in through the back. There are no links to ordering through the main page anymore. You could always try ordering something and see if you still get charged if you'd like to test your skepticism ;)

John

Re: Wonder why...

C.R. Miller

>It is a heck of a lot of money, isn't it? I could understand that sort of a loss on a medium to large operation, but a two-person business in an extremely niche market?

Any idea, roughly, on the amount of planes the guys produced? I did see a figure of 200 somewhere on their site but I think that was a while ago.

Re: Shepherd Tools

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>After reading this sad commentary about Shepherd Tools I happened to look in an old FWW from about 8 years ago. As I thumbed through the ads in the back I was struck by the number of companies that no longer exist. Or at least no longer advertise in FWW. It seems that in order to start up a company you must have your ducks in a row and be well schooled in business management. There are hosts of influences that can kill a small business.

It would be nice to have the resources to aquire an infill economically so I hope the business can be ressurected. And I am sorry for Doug and Ben. Particularly the fact that they lost everything. Perhaps the lesson here is to incorporate and not go past a certain point in investing personal assets.JR

Re: Doesn't come up for me...

C.R. Miller

>Even though the front door has been locked and bolted, the back door, side door and all the windows are still wide open.

In other words all of their pages are still available through the web, but there's no links to them from the front page.

Compassion

Dean Lapinel

>I have been on both ends.

I lost a lot of money when someone went bankrupt. I knew there was a risk but I felt compelled to help a couple in trouble. I lost the money but don't regret that...I helped people in there time of need...that part is what I remember.

I started an antique clock newsletter that was successful in a manner I didn't calculate. I had counted on advertising for profit so the subscription prices just barely covered the expenses. Two things stopped me early in this venture. First- I was getting an abundance of international subscribers and I hadn't counted on the extra mailing expense. Second, I couldn't kick off the advertising even with free offers of advertising space. I was lucky to realize that I was headed into a hole within 6 months so I pulled the plug when I still could pay everyone back. My error was not knowing the market. There were roughly 35K clock collectors and most of them not business types that are prone to advertise.

My venture required little inventory, time and didn't require phone calls for advice, repairs etc...as with Shepherd tools. The predictability of a demise of a complex small company is difficult. It's actually not unusual for a business to go dry and close to broke in frequent cycles.

My sympathy goes to Ben and Doug. I wish them a speedy recovery financially and emotionally. I feel bad for those that may have lost money. But I do not believe that there was any bad intention on their part�please be patient and forgiving.

Compassion is a wonderful thing. The more you feel it and show it the more alive you feel. Doug and Ben need our compassion now.

You're somewhat right Jim

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>As most of you know, I'm a toolmaker too on a part time basis. Some of the production work I actually love doing (turning the handles) and some of it is exceedingly boring and repetitive like cleaning up the blades and sharpening them. Ever try sharpening and honing both bevels on 128 marking knife blades at one sitting? DON'T. My hands were crippled for days. For most of my work I batch process for efficiency and it's something I can handle, but there's lots of other stuff that is a royal PIA. Bookkeeping in particular is onerous, even with software. It's just not fun at all.

Running your own side or full time business requires mental discipline. You force yourself to keep a schedule and do those tasks you hate first so that they get done. The fun parts take care of themselves since you really are excited and want to do them. A friend asked me recently for advise on marketing. I only half jokingly told him that I wasn't the one to ask since my approach is Negative Marketing. I have tended to keep a low profile when it comes to marketing and hype. I don't want to be in the situation where I can't meet demand and customers are emailing and calling saying, "You promised......". My method of dealing with and controlling demand is to not market very much at all. I can afford this luxury ONLY because I do this for fun and a supplementary income. Folks like Konrad Sauer, Dave Jeske, the Shepherd boys, and a host of others who are trying to make their living at this full time are in a far more difficult situation. I envy them their independence, but not the uncertain cash flow, the worries about where the next order is coming from, or the many long days needed to meet delivery requirements. It's a tough road to be a one or 2 man shop.

Re: Compassion

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>Very well said Dean. Knowing both Ben and Doug I've no doubt they feel horrible about not being able to pay folks back or deliver on their promises. I also feel very bad about those folks who were left with prepaid unfilled orders. I'm sure that the financial situation is difficult for both of them right now and they are both suffering from depression. I would expect that when they start to recover emotionally from their problems that they will make every effort to make things right for folks.

Re: Shepherd Tools

Mark Nowicki

>The surprise, in my opinion, is that Shepherd Tools survived for 5 years, despite their flawed business strategy. It goes to show how trusting the wood working community is, and how powerful a marketing tool the internet has become. Ellis should consider raising his advertising rates.

Mark Nowicki

Re: Shepherd Tools

Mike Swindell

>I was lucky enough to enroll in a class to build a chariot plane,although their time estimates were too optimistic, the plane was eventually finished. Regardless of how well these guys were received, they were less than perfect businessmen. I seriously doubt they had any type of business plan or a cash flow analysis either in their head or on paper. Sheperdtool basically winged it, and the result is a failure.

I have no idea what a laser cutting machine cost, but I'm sure this purchase might have pushed them over the edge. I beleive Ben was the only one mashing the dovetails together, so a bottleneck was created immediately if anything happened to the sole planemaker.

I was also somewhat chagrined to learn that while knowing the company was in severe financial distress, they both decided to travel the country, giving classes and promoting their planes. If you can't produce what you have on order, then why promote your business knowing full well you need customer deposits to keep afloat.

This might not look like a Ponzi scheme, but in fact that exactly what it was, regardless of their intentions. They knowingly accepted deposits, knowing full well planes would not be delivered, and using this cash to pay current and past due bills.

If Sheperdtools had done at least a halfbaked analysis of the market, they could have increased their prices without sacrificing customers. Look at the prices of other infil makers and you'll notice quite a discrepancy between Sherd and others. Lets face it, the infil market is not large, perhaps a 100 or so year, you can't make a living on this type of market, it's more of a hobby, not a business in which you can support a family or any type of lifestyle.

Hopefully they can recover, but knowingly receiving funds from customers for planes they knew were never being delivered, is fraud in my book.

Business growth

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>Little to no marketing is just about right for a part time business. No need to whip people up and then get six months behind. Also, huge production orders can take the starch out of you and turn something that is fun into downright torture. Sometimes less is more.

The true goal of a business

Jim Reed @ Tallahassee

>is not profit as most people will respond. The true goal of a business is SURVIVAL. Once you figure out how to survive, then you figure out how to make a profit. It is not a simple process and it is sad to see the large numbers of businesses that cannot figure out how to survive.