Large Tenon saw

Re: Long haul

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I don't think you read my post very carefully. I don't have any larger backsaws so this saw is used for everything. I think I got my new saw vise around 1990, so I no longer have to take it apart. The point is that this is a saw that has been "used by a tradesman every day of his working life" and has held up well with only two bolts. Nor do I as a tradesman look at a new saw with only two bolts and think it inadequate.

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

todd hughes

>With the handle sticking up on the other end of the saw I would think it would prove difficult to hit the back there....Todd

And again.....

todd hughes

>what is the advantage of having only 2 saw nuts instead of 3?

I drove a Toyota truck for 75,000 miles that was missing a lug nut on the back right wheel, didn't have any trouble. But when I change my tire on the truck I have now I always make sure I put all the nuts back on .....Todd

Re: Long haul

Tom Price

>Wow, I can't hardly believe that I've been sucked into an argument on the Internet regarding the optimum number of bolts in a saw handle. I'm just picturing trying to explain this to my non-woodworking friends. Or my spouse.

Ok, I'll try one last time to frame this debate in a more-or-less reasonable way. The original assertion was that backsaws (apparently of any length) only need two bolts for the handle (I guess Adam would argue that they only need one). I basically asked why then did the major saw manufacturers come to use three (for their better saws) starting with saws of about 12" or longer. Actually, my big miter saw has four, but I digress. So they drilled extra holes in millions of saw handles and blades and wasted untold tons of brass just for cosmetic purposes? Their customers blindly bought into this? This was all saw-bling? Heck, Just from rule-of-thumb engineering it seems to me that a 3-point support is inherently better than a 2-point. Longer the blade, the more force on the handle? I just find it really hard to believe that the marketplace didn't exert some selective influence on the manufacturers to keep that extra bolt there.

Crikey, next you-all will be telling me that double-tapering and hand-smithing handsaws was just so much marketing hype.

- Tom

Re: Long haul

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Disclaimer aside Tom...I think you are just stirring the pot. :-)

See you at PATINA.JR

Re: Long haul

Alice Frampton, UK

>I'm not saying it is, but it could be for the same reasons that manufacturers now sell "bevel edged" chisels with bevels that have no practical benefit, or cryo A2 steel when the majority of users would do just fine with O1 (IMO - no, I'm absolutely not getting into a discussion about it, so don't start!). The customer perceives it to be desirable because it only used to be found on the more expensive tools, ergo anything with that desirable feature must be "better". Even if it's better beyond any benefit to that particular customer. We buy into it now, why should the customer generations ago have been that much different?

Cheers, Alf

May be simple aesthetics

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>People seem to prefer an odd number of things like petals on flowers, branches on trees, etc. Maybe 3 nuts are more aesthetically pleasing.

Pam

Re: tapered blades

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Maybe we need to qualify taper, thickness-taper, width-taper, etc.?

Pam

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

Jeff Schmidt

>One can tap right in front of the handle just as easily as the over the toe. If the goal is to straighten the blade, I would expect it to be done along the entire length of the blade.

Stayin' away from this one

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>

Chicken. :)

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

todd hughes

>I was thinking more of the saw being dropped, ...

.... I think you would have a hard time driving the back down by the handle very far on most saws since the back is cut into the handle and would bottom out.....I've straightend a good many back saws and I normaly just tap the front of the back up or down though with some you have to take the entire blade out and reset it....Todd

Try trapezoid(as opposed to rectangle)

Bob Hackett(Mainely,Bob)

>The blade is either a rectangle or a trapezoid.If the blade tapers most folks immediately think it tapers in thickness.

MB

pock, pock, pock,...pock-k-k

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>

Re: tapered blades

mikew

>Hi Pam,

I usually state that it is the height of the blade that tapers. Less height at the toe, more at the heel.

Take care, Mike

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

Adam Cherubini

>I think the reason you can reduce height in the toe and not the heel is because there are saw nuts preventing the motion at the heel- we're talking about a relative motion between the spine and the blade, right? At the heel you don't have access to the spine.

THAT SAID:

With the utmost respect to Todd who's seen more old saws than I ever will, Jane Rees and Jay Gaynor got to handle the seaton saws and they are all tapered quite a bit. And they both see a lot of old saws as well. By my calculations Seaton's tenon saw has 1" of taper over its length (5-1/2-4-1/2- if I'm not mistaken). Moreover, Smith's key and other period images show tapered blades so...

Not to be overally diplomatic, it could be that both are true. Some guys may have purposely knocked their blades into their spines to make their saws look like their masters'. Clearly saw makers stopped making saws this way. I think this feature deserves revisiting.

Adam

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

todd hughes

>This topic comes up on the oldtools list a good bit and last time a fellow pointed out that in the copy of an English saw catalog from early 1900 he had and it talked about how this saw makers [I think maybe Spear and Jackson...going by memory now] promoted how it's backs were being made and that it prevented the blades being driven up into the toe like others saws could. From this it seemed clear that not only wasn't the saws made like this [tapered blades] but that some saw makers took steps from letting happen or at least promoted that thier saws wouldn't

..I have seen many Disstons with tapered blades as well as older saws.Don't think there could be any doubt that Disston never made a tapered backsaw, these are the folks that had different models for many variations of near identical saws if the made a tapered back saw it would ba number 4 1/2 or some such thing. If we accept the fact that Disston back saws got tapered after they left the factory why can't it be acepted that others got tapered in the same manner?....Todd

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>I have read that the backsaw blade taper (at the toe) may have been caused by the need to sharpen the saw and the saw vise used. A home made saw vise may have been too thick to accomodate the blade without angeling it and thus causing excess metal removement at the toe.JR

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

todd hughes

>I have heard this too and must confess to pointing out to buyers that a backsaw they had with a tapered blade looked to be "sharpened up" in an attempt to get a better deal on a $15 saw and I guess it could be one of the causes but I don't know....On all the tapered back saws where I took the blade out of the back during restoring ,the blade when taken out of the back was more or less non tapered. If it was from being sharpened the blade when out of the back would still be tapered I would think......Interesting though....Todd

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

Adam Cherubini

>Todd,

Here;s my opinion:

I don't see any way to believe taper was unintentional when 18th c sources clearly show the taper. It may well have fallen out of favor, but with so many other tools "dumbed down" by 19th c factories, its a hard sell to suggest the rectangular blade shape reflected a "functional improvement" over the earlier style. If any improvement extisted, it began and ended with reducing mass-production cost.

Adam

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Probably true Todd. In looking at some of the heavily tapered saws tho, it looks like the back isn't deep enough to hold all the taper. May be wrong. Been wrong before:-)JR

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Here's another crazy idea. Since the geometry of the back w.r.t. the handle is fixed when the saw is manufactured, since the back is fitted into a slot in the handle, and the blade is likewise bolted to the handle, maybe some users decided the hang of their saw was not to their preference, and so tapered the blade to change it a bit. This, of course, could only rationalize a few examples.

Related notion or query

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>It seems like the tapered saw would have a softer start than the same saw if left rectangular. For the first strokes, or if changing sawing angles, wouldn't the tapered saw be attacking the work at a less aggressive rake angle? If so, the tapered saw would have an effect similar to a progressive-rake filing.

Wiley

Re: Why Only In the Toe?

paul womack

>The blade can't move at the heel end. The fixing bolts go though the handle.

BugBear

Perhaps a dumb question...

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>One aspect I didn't photograph that I never see copied is the taper in the blade.

I haven't given this much thought but I always assumed that these saws started out rectangular and gradually became trapezoidal from jointing and sharpening. Given that the first 2/3 of the blade are going to get the most use, that seemed credible.

So is there documentation extant to show these saws new with the trapezoidal shaped blade?