Large Tenon saw

Handle esthetics and blah

Adam Cherubini

>To get a bit closer, I would suggest that you give more of a continuous circular curve to the front part of that handle, and decrease the amount of flair at the bottom of the grip.

Yeah, I'm just not that happy with this saw handle. Having already drilled it, I don't think I can make a replacement. But I may well try to remove it and modify it if I can.

I prefer the rounded front seen on earlier saws. (I think Jay Gaynor has one because all the tenons in Wmsburg have that sort of handle, not the kenyon handle I tried to make).

& & & & & &

I would like to see some of the pro saw makers like Mike (and not to single him out in any way- he) make accurate repros of the Seaton saws, or the Duncan Phyfe saws which are even bolder. They almost have a Lord of the Rings elvish look that may prove popular. Copying disston is done IMHO.

One aspect I didn't photograph that I never see copied is the taper in the blade. All my back saws are tapered, just like the Seaton saws. Also, my smallest DT has a really narrow blade- under two inches total- I think there's only a little more than an inch clear at the toe). I believe these shapes are more elegant esthetically. In use, there is a tiny noticeable difference in the C.G. Having the handle so close to the edge is nice as well.

There has been some discussion of this (taper) being accidental. I asked Jay Gaynor and Jane Rees about this very issue. Both were confident this was both intentional and typical. Now when I look at Disston's very rectangular blade shapes they look blocky to me- machine made, inelegant. Likewise, some of the modern tenon saws seem to have too much blade under the spine. There must be some practical relationship between blade length and depth.

I think there's a lot to saws.

Adam

Re: Blade Thickness?

Adam Cherubini

>Its the same as the comparable saw in the Seaton chest. Its not in front of me right now. I think its .025. E-mail me at home and I'll mic it for you.

Adam

Re: Nice saws!

mikew

>Hi Paul--thank you very much!

There are two ways to handle this. I prefer the second. First and probably traditionally, is to have progressive ppi that blends into the remainder. Hard to do well. For this method, use a vector-based drawing program to place 1 point thick lines about two inches in length parallel to each other at the ppi you desire. For the first couple inches at one end, add more lines and space them vairably.

Print that out and use it to guide the spacing when you cut in new teeth.

The second way is to joint and file the saw as per "normal." Joint lightly to create an even flat again. Then file the teeth from the heel towards the toe at whatever rake angle you like on a saw, but as you near the toe, rotate the file a little more on each tooth, tilting it back to create more rake. When to begin this depends on the length of the blade, but on a 14" saw, I would begin in the last 2 1/2" at the toe end.

This method makes it much easier and accomplishes the same thing--or imo is better.

Take care, Mike

yo yo y'all, saw nuts are bling!

Adam Cherubini

>More saw nuts is better. This thread is a good example!

Seems to me that you only need one nut if you fit the handle properly. When the wood shrinks, you may need another. If your holes lack good quality, more nuts help fix that.

Otherwise, I think saws with some big medallion and 4 nuts beside it just look gaudy...like,...well...flav-o-flav with the huge clock he wears (or wore) around his neck and his gold teeth. Saw nuts are bling bling. I think the smaller, fewer nuts are elegant and understated.

Word up

Adam

Re: Handle esthetics and blah

Jeff Schmidt

>Also, my smallest DT has a really narrow blade- under two inches total- I think there's only a little more than an inch clear at the toe). I believe these shapes are more elegant esthetically. In use, there is a tiny noticeable difference in the C.G. Having the handle so close to the edge is nice as well.

That is an interesting observation.

Now when I look at Disston's very rectangular blade shapes they look blocky to me- machine made, inelegant.

I agree. The tapered blades are much more pleasing, less cookie cutter looking.

I think there's a lot to saws.

Simple yet profound. :-)

vector based what?

Adam Cherubini

>We don't need no stinking vectors.

To get accurate pitch you count strokes. To reduce pitch you just remove one stroke. In my shop, progressive pitch is also progressive rake. Its not hard to do, but its easier to learn on bigger saws with coarser teeth. Didn't you retooth that saw you made for Pennsbury? Isn't that progressive? That's a beautiful saw, Paul. You should post pictures of both of those saws you made.

Adam

Re: Hey Adam?

Jeff Schmidt

>Mike,

Thanks for the link. I think it is just wonderful that you are making these unusual and beautiful saws. I hope that this turns into a nice niche market for you.

Re: yo yo y'all, saw nuts are bling! *LINK*

HC Sakman

>Here you go Adam. This one is for you.

Chico...


Search Engine for more bling

Re: Large Tenon saw

Skip in Falls Church

>Hi Mike,

You're very welcome! And I may just take you up on the emailing - thanks for that as well. I experienced a very protracted lesson about saw handles that I found very instructive. Some time back in the 70's I bought one of the Diston-Porter backsaws. (I was young and didn't know any better!) Every time I used it the handle wore a blister in the web between my thumb and finger. Eventually I put it away and forgot about it.

Then I moved here to Virginia a few years ago and took the thing up here with me. After I started getting into hand tools and accumlating a few saws that needed sharpening, I decided to send them to Tom Law to be sharpened. I ran across the old Diston and decided to send it for sharpening as well. It as a lot easier to just send the blade so I left the handle on my bench. After looking at it for a while and remembering the blisters it caused I decided to fix the handle. It didn't take too long and, while I couldn't change the overly large opening for the fingers, I did make the handle usable - even relatively comfortable.

It's still not a great saw - but OTOH it's fine to use if there's the possibility of a nail or grit in the wood. And the handle is far more comfortable. Of course there's the possibility that I keep it around as an object lesson too. ;)

Skip

My gawd!

Steve Kubien

>This is a 1st on WC... Someone used the word 'bling' and the name 'flav-o-flav' in on post and it's the most non-bling of us all...The 18th century guy! Can we get a moderators ruling on where this thread could be going?

Steve Kubien

I Know Nothing

Jeff Schmidt

>I have not idea to what these terms refer and I have a feeling this is a good thing. :-)

Re: vector based what?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>You seem to be saying that a measure of pitch is the angle at which you hold the saw relative to the wood. And that to change pitch you change the angle. Is this a correct representation?

Pam

Cutting new teeth?

Paul in NJ

>Adam,

Since I am a novice at this, when I re-tooth a saw I use another saw to set the spacing. I clamp the blades together and nick the saw with a file to set the spacing using the other saw teeth as a template. I have used hack saw blades to space finer tooth saws or in the case of the Pennsbury rip saw I used another rip saw with nicely proportioned teeth as a guide. Whether sharpening a saw or cutting new teeth I don't count strokes so much, I try to halve the flats between the gullets. When buying a used saw I look for one that has nicely proportioned teeth, it makes the sharpening so much easier. I understand less strokes means a finer pitch, but I don't see how you get the spacing without some layout.

Paul Dzioba

P.S. Pam - what Adam is calling pitch, is an engineers or machinists term for things like teeth per inch, threads per inch, etc.

Re: Cutting new teeth?

Adam Cherubini

>Maybe the quick answer is I don't. I don't know how consistent my teeth are. Especially the fine teeth.

Cutting big teeth is fairly easy. So I look at a saw whose teeth I want to emmulate. Then I count the file strokes to make one tooth that size. On the next tooth, I just count strokes while putting more pressure on one side of teh file or the other to get the tooth in the right place.

If you remind me, I'll bring some stuff to the next historic trades day and I'll show you what I'm doing. Oh, that reminds me, I made some walnut hull dye to try for our forme.

Adam

Thanks, Paul

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Handle esthetics and blah

todd hughes

>I think the tapered blades on these old saws are from being bumped around or from user atempts to straighten the blade. I have seen more then a few back saws over the years and no ryme or reason to which ones have tapered blades. Have seen some old ones like mine in the above photo that doesn't have a tapered blade and then I have seen Disstons from the 1930s that the blade is tapered. In my experance the better condition the saw is the less chance it is that the blade will be tapered.The above saw even though around 200 years old was obviously well cared for in a protected enviroment....and no taper. I have taken "tapered" blades out of backs befor and guess what I found? That they were not tapered after all but just pushed up in the spine. I have "de tapered" many, many saws by putting the blade in a vice and taping up on the spine unti it is straight...

I could be wrong and maybe pushed up blades were a factory option, maybe they came with the cracked handle and backward saw nut package, eh?.....Todd

Re: Please...why assume the negative first?

Tom Price

>First off, I'm not dissing Mike's saw - it is a very handsome tool and looks to be well made.

However, you made the statement that a backsaw (medium to large is what I'm talking about here) only needs two bolts on the handle if the fit is very good. However, Disston, and the other major manufacturers from the late 1880's on used 3 bolts on their larger backsaws. Fact is, they made millions of these things over the decades. Maybe it was because of customer preference - key customers being tradesmen who worked with these tools every day of their working lives. Who maybe by experience discovered that over the long haul, a backsaw, say 12" or larger, really needs 3 bolts, not two.

- Tom

tapered blades

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Hey, this is getting a bit confusing. When I think tapered blade, I think of the thickness of the metal decreasing from teeth to spine, or some variation thereof. And now you all seem to be saying that tapered means decreasing width.

Pam

Re: Handle esthetics and blah

Jeff Schmidt

>Weren't Seaton's Kenyon saws used very little? If so, the theory of use, sharpening, etc causing tapers would not hold water.

Re: Handle esthetics and blah

todd hughes

>And just how much was the taper in his saws? I'm looking at a photo of them and while I have read that they are tapered the amount must be so slight as it is hard to see any in the photo....certainly not like many others saws that I have seen where the taper is as much as 1/2 inch or so. The taper in his could be from the slight adjusting of the blade to straighten it in the back, maybe done by thier makers, but again the taper is so slight I wouldn't think ones like it are what we are talking about....Todd

Re: tapered blades

todd hughes

>I sort of didn't like to use the word "Tapered" for this because I was thinking the same thing Pam but didn't know what else to call it. In this case the Taper is the depth of the blade beneath of the back as it goes from front to back. On a non tapered backsaw the depth is the same at the front of the saw as it is at the back of the back. Tapered ones have the front of the blade driven further up into the spine leaving the depth to be less toward the front. The discusion is how the blades got like this. Was they made like this or done by accident or on purpose by owners.....Todd

Re: Cutting new teeth?

Paul in NJ

>Thanks Adam, I kind of thought that is what you might be doing. I am going to give that a try. I would love to see and try your saws at Pennsbury if you don't mind bringing them.

Paul

Re: Long haul

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>I have a 12 inch backsaw that I have bought new in 1976. About twenty years ago I fitted an old, more comfortable handle on the saw and since that time it has been used daily and used hard. The only other backsaws I use are dovetail saws so this 12" saw has been used for cuts that would be better done with a larger saw. I think someone like me who does only hand work really ought to have around four saws to do what this saw has done. This saw has been dropped to the floor at least fifty times and before I got my current saw vise I took it apart every time I sharpened it.

I had to go look how many bolts there were; there are only two. I think two bolts is adequate.

Re: Long haul

Tom Price

>Well if you have taken the handle off to sharpen it every time, then I'd say you've spent some time tightening those sawnuts in any event. Just out of curiosity, who made your saw?

How about your 14", 16" or larger backsaws. How many bolts do they have?

- Tom

Why Only In the Toe?

Jeff Schmidt

>Todd,

If the taper is only due to the blade being "bumped" into the spine, then why are they all tapered at the toe of the blade?