Marking dovetails

Re: Rob's rebate

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Those are some interesting points you mention Adam. I am the beginner mentioned in one of the messages, and I often find the array of tools and what all the ads say "will take my work to a whole new level" a tad bewildering. I had recently read Chris's article on rough to ready and liked his descriptions of how the planes are used in the process. I was always wondering why I'd want a low angle jack, when I generally hear that jacks are for removing a lot of material. I can see where a low angle jack would be nice, but it isn't absolutely necessary to do any one particular thing. If I have a smoother that works well, the LA jack won't really help me much.

I don't have all the money in the world, so as a beginner, I really like to know where I'll get the most for my dollar, and where I just need to learn a skill and get good at it.

I don't really mean to pull the thread further away, but I had considered how the people woodworking have changed, and really only recently. Woodworking was a trade, and people did it for money. As a rule, they did it for life, and got very good at it. A 50 year veteran could probably cut a perfect dovetail with a rusty butterknife, blindfolded (ok, extreme exxageration there). However, now most people do this for a hobby. We don't get to cut dovetails every day, so manufacturers are finding ways to let us do it easier, and with less error, all with a much shorter learning time. The target market and it's skills is quite different from even 50 or 100 years ago.

Just one of those thoughts, figured I'd see what other's think.

This has caused me problems in the past...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>You need to make a series of light cuts with the knife. 2 or 3 passes usually do it for me. Also the knife must be vertically flush with the tail. If the line is too light to see, I use a pencil to darken it up.

Now a question for you Bill. What kind of marking knife are you using?

I use a double bevel single sided knife. This way the flat side of the blade is flat against the tail when marking. I can�t subscribe to scribing with an awl. It�s hard to get it resting and aligned with the tail. You also have a chance of undercutting the scribed line i.e. under the tail.

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Assuming that most all woodworkers have a rebate plane and/or saw of some sort, I can't imagine anyone buying a tool just to use this technique.

Pam

Re: Marking dovetails

Monty Bates

>Normally I am a lurker here. Read everything but rarely say anything. There are many good ideas and a lot of nice people. However some of us just can't do things in a traditional manner. In my case a tremor disorder makes marking and cutting dovetails all but impossible. I have tried every gadget known to man it seems in my quest to cut perfect dovetails. In my opinion the best jig for marking is one featured in Furniture & Cabinetmaking magazine a few years ago. It was in an article written by Robert Ingham and is unique in that it alingns and clamps at the same time. I can email a copy of the article if you would like. The best jig for chopping is Derek Cohens and it can be seen online. I also find that when making very narrow pins a marking knife is useless. In some cases you just can't get it in there. I have used Cecil Pierces idea of using an old thin block plane blade with much success. Just a light tap and a perfect mark is the result.

Re: Rob's rebate

Warren in Lancaster, PA

>Stephen,

I read your post and dug out a dovetailed box I made 30 years ago. The dovetails still look awfully good. At that time I had 12 tools: 2 chisels, 2 saws, mallet, marking gauge, plane, plow, awl, square, knife, and rule.

Re: Rob's rebate

David W. Dougherty

>Speaking as one who has recently used Rob's technique, I like it and will continue to use for dovetailing. I think one should actually try out a technique before reducing it to a marketing ploy. BTW, in my case, I didn't run out and buy a new L-N plane; I used an E.C.E. Moving Fillester plane I bought a while back. Same result: perfect joints.

I agree

Jim in Burlington On

>No rebate it's just another step to aggrivate you. I don't push hard as the knife will follow the grain and you might move the tail board your holding. I use a disposable flexible knife and made several light passes. I used to use a pocket knife but now find the disposable is more flexible and makes a more accurate mark.

Figuring it all out

Jim in Burlington On

>The LV LA jack explains itself after you use it a few times changing blades to tackle tougher to plane woods. I'd certainly of bought alot fewer planes had I tried out LA planes. It certainly takes some experence to figure out which tools and methods work for you. If you save off cuts with nasty grain patterns and work on smoothing them (yes practice) you'll be able to speed right along. Got that tip from Darrel a few years ago.

Re: Marking dovetails -jig

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Norman,

I hope people will take a long look at your jig. It's REALLY good, because it is so compact and has all the functions in one place.

Incidentally, anyone wanting to try out the rebate method, and who did not have a moving filletster, could use the paring guide ('caul') as a fence to make the rebate with a shoulder or any other rebate plane. Or to fence a shallow crosscut to start the sawing procedure. In other words, do the final paring from the outside to the inside; then turn the board over, reclamp at the inside scribe line, and plane the rebate. You gotta look at the inside anyway to make sure all the paring cuts are true to the inside scribe line.

Great post! Wiley

Re: Figuring it all out

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>I test drove the LA planes back when LV was at a WW show. It was a nice plane. I just wondered how it would handle what was the old jack plane activity of hogging off wood. Now, most of us have table saws, band saws and planers for that, so we may not use jack planes much for that purpose. I could use some more exercise though, so maybe I should start hand surfacing boards!

Re: Rob's rebate

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>Haha. Love it.

Forget the label

Jim in Burlington On

>Just forget what the label says. It's a highly evolved plane that is a multi purpose plane. It works as a super smoother with the additional blades, jack plane and good for shooting endgrain. The adjustable mouth and variable cutting angles (with additional blades) makes it the most used plane in my shop. I'd of been hard pressed to buy a LN 4 1/2,5 1/2, LV LA smoother(first one they made) and the 2 605's had I owned that plane.

Re: skill versus tools

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I agree mostly with what you say, but will add a few thoughts to see if I can clarify the fog in my head. The main thought that comes to my head is that there are some tools that are worth spending money on to get good results. The second thought is that a lot of people nowadays have much more money that sense. They don't care what it costs; they want it. On the other hand, there are a number of tools that would have saved me a large amount of frustration as a beginning woodworker not knowing how a good tool was supposed to function. Chisels would be one of these tools. You don't need expensive chisels, you can buy them at garage sales or flea markets; but knowing the difference between a good chisel and a bad chisel comes from experience. A good plane is also necessary, but again knowing what is a good plane takes experience, which mainly is learned from making stupid decisions. Having the right tools is not as important as having the right skills, but having either one of these comes from experience.

Re: Marking dovetails

Dan Donaldson

>I do pins first, but what I do, is after I get the pins cut, I take one of the tail boards, lay it on the bench and clamp one of the other sides across it right on the line. I can then stand the pin board up against it, using the edge of that side to register it and mark the tails. It is quick for me and I don't have any extra stuff around. Just the clamp and the parts to be dovetailed

Re: Marking dovetails -jig

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Norman

That is a terrfic jig. I like it very much and gives me some inspiration.

Keep an eye out for the next Popular Woodworking edition (I think it will be that one) - another plug for PW. A jig of mine will be published in the tips section (which is why I cannot post it here). It is mainly designed to make accurate pairing easier. There is an overlap with your jig.

Nice one.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

Dean in Burlington

>Bill,

It's great that you've thought about it. But have you tried it?

Re: Rob's rebate

Dean in Burlington

>If you think Rob is only interested in selling stuff then I suggest you call and tell him you want to order a 2,3, 5, 5 1/4, or 6 and see how far you get.

Also...have you tried the rebate trick?

Re: Marking dovetails

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Monty, Pierce's idea sounds great, on the order of Frid's method for chopping half blind dovetails with a scraper blade. I plan to try this one. Fast and sufficiently precise.

Thanks,

Pam

Rabetting tails is nothing new.

HC Sakman

>It sure works well for registration & marking, no doubt.

Chico...

Re: Rob's rebate

Dan Clermont in Burnaby

>Hi Adam,

Curious to know how you get gap free dovetails. How about a little "How to" with lots of pics showing your method?

I have done dovetails for years and although not all of them are perfect (far from) I do see the added benefit to using a rebate plane to help score the line. It probably doesn't have to be a LN and I am sure you could use a 78 or do what Jeff Gorman suggests and use a ruler rather then a rebate plane.

Correct me if wrong but I believe the scoring of the line with a rebate trick is actually a Allan Peter's trick which ROb demonstrates. Just cause Rob passes it on to others using tools he has doesn't mean that is what you need to buy.

On another note, I tried to buy a LN #5 from Rob once along with a LN #4 Bronze which he talked me out of. He could have sold me the tools and let me then buy a 4.5 or 5.5 but didn't I got my 5.5 and now use it religiously as my go to smoother. Someday I may buy a shorter smoother such as a 4.5 for smaller projects but with the good tools I have I work wood rather then search for the ultimate tool

Cheers

Dan Clermont

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Pam, you are quite right (about most woodworkers owning a rebate plane). However, the rebate on the tail board has to be made across the grain, and a skew-bladed plane will produce a superior finish in this regard, possibly also not lead to chip out at the end of the board.

Since I am unwilling to purchase a LN #140 (with a fence, which my Stanley #140 lacks) just for this experiment, I will have a go with my Record #778 (it seems far too much work to clamp a fence on the board to use my Stanley. Then this whole thing starts to get silly).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

Paul Kierstead

>Hmm...Norm's jig, when used as a paring guide, would also make a handy-dandy fence in just the right spot

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Yes, I suppose; but if you saw the line first, it shouldn't make that much difference. Another plane that would work would be a shoulder plane with batten. My LN 073 seems to have no problems going cross grain.

Or, more to the point, if it's inconvenient or too expensive to do it one way, find another way. This is one of the beauties of woodworking: there are many ways to accomplish a goal. I've gone 25 years without using this rebate technique for dovetails, and yet have been able to cut perfect dovetails all the while, simply by carefully lining up the two boards for marking transfer and holding them still. The rebate method impressed me as ultimately being faster and more precise without worry, that's all.

Pam

Another idea to add to the list

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Another idea I posted, back in August last year (OK, I was inbetween projects and bored with the winter rains), was titled "Chisel Marking Knife for skinny dovetails", and is in the Handtool archives.

Essentially I demonstrated that one could mark the pins from the tail board BEFORE the tail waste was removed. Just use the right blade in the kerfs you cut for the tails.

Of course, this required a very skinny marking knife blade, so I made one out of a steel trowel. The knife is bevelled along three sides and can cut either by pushing it downward, or in the traditional diagonal swiping movement. It fits tightly in the kerf - no sideways movement. The picture below is a basic demonstration, while the archives contains a picture of the completed dovetail join.

All in more fun than seriousness, as have not used it since, but it does represent a real option when marking pins.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

paul womack

>Assuming that most all woodworkers have a rebate plane and/or saw of some sort, I can't imagine anyone buying a tool just to use this technique.

Really?! You don't read as many forums as I do then!!

BugBear