Marking dovetails

Re: Marking dovetails

Paul in NJ

>Bill,

I simply clamp the pin board vertically in my vice flush with my bench. I press the tail board over it with one hand and use my other hand to transfer the marks with the awl end of my striking knife. The ends of the boards are cut square so they automatically square up.

Paul Dzioba

Re: Marking dovetails

Adam Cherubini

>This is the exact reason I like a twin screw vise. Hi Paul!

***************************************

One area I struggle with is whether I hold the baseline or flush the end to the outside face of the pin board. It seems like the answer should be plain to see, yet I think it has a lot to do with whether you leave the line when you saw or saw it out. I used to leave the line so I got to pushing the tail board back a bit when I transferred the marks. Now I try to saw my marks out (its a confidence thing). Just know that these things are all related.

adam

Re: Marking dovetails

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>Bill

Rule #1 is that the boards MUST be perfectly square on a reference corner.

Rule #2 is the boards MUST be perfectly FLAT. Anything that is not flat will throw the fit off.

Rob Cosman, in his recent DVD on piston fit drawers, demonstrates how he cuts a very shallow rebate (one or two shavings) with a #140 (skew block plane) along the edge of the tail board. When he places the tail board on top of the to-be-pin-board, then they lock into position. This makes it easier to mark and assures a close fit.

I have not tried this. It looks interesting. I just do the same thing, but sans the rebate. So, pin board in face vise, squared and flush with the side of a plane. Then tail board placed on top of both and held down firmly with one hand, while the other marks with a blunt marking knife.

If visibility of the lines is poor - perhaps because of the wood colour - then I draw them in as well with a contrasting colour.

Rule #3 for me is to make absolutely certain that the pins/tails are all cut to the baseline, and that these are in-line. It is helpful to use a fence to guide the last paring cuts in this regard.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Marking dovetails

Jack Guzman from Maine

>I have a block on my bench I use for this.I hold the pin board in a vise the same height above the bench as the block is thick.Place the block at the far end of the tail board and hold the tail board tight to the pin board to mark.I use a small square to align the ends.

Rob Cosman shows a trick in one of his videos where he cuts a shallow rabbet into the tail board to aid with registration.I tried it,it works.---Jack

Re: Rebates

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Wiley first brought this method to my attention, probably in a message here. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems an excellent way to add a little precision to the process, and I certainly plan to start doing this. As you say, Cosmo shows this in his dvd with a 140, and it's a really cool method. The ends must be cut square for the rebate to be helpful.

Pam

Re: Marking dovetails

Darrell in Oakville

>Hi Bill,

If I'm not in a hurry and I'm after a very precise joint I use a pair of those cheap corner clamps. They hold the stock exactly where you want it and nothing moves around so you get accurate marks. But it takes time to set it all up.

Usually I do like most people and take advantage of the square edge of the bench and the vise. A gravity clamp helps too. Those little 10 pound toy anvils make great clamps for stuff like this.

Darrell

Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User

Re: Marking dovetails *LINK*

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Hi Bill,

I know your boards are square and flat, so won't repeat that.

I go tails first, like you do. My basic setup for transferring marks is shown in the link below. Talking about a lapped drawer front now. The pins board is clamped vertically against the skirt of the bench--in my case, this is using my twin-screw end vise, but there are other ways. The tails board is then clamped down over the pins board, so nothing is moving. Then I mark. No other mark is made on the end grain of the pins board except the transfers from the tails board. This is crucial--the only marks on the end grain of the pins board are the transfers.

Registration of the two boards is an issue for me. To remove it as an issue, I've been using the Cosman rebate method ever since Konrad Sauer told me about it a couple of years ago. I strongly recommend it. You will get a perfect registration every time if you use it. Cosman cuts this rebate or fillet with an LN140. I like to saw it myself.

The link below shows how the two boards are held, as well as the placement of the rebate on the tails board, how I saw it, and shows how it helps registration for transferring the tails pattern. The photos have somehow gotten out of sequence, and I apologize for that, but I think you can get the gist of it anyway.

Wiley


Rebating tails board and transferring pattern

Rob's rebate

Adam Cherubini

>I'm less convinced this is such a good idea. Afterall, its another feature to line up and worry about gapping. It seems to remove some of the forgiveness of the baseline and the fit I mentioned earlier. And it just makes the joint that much more complicated. I don't see it as a benefit.

Aside from that, I'm so sorry to say, when I see Rob doing things like this, my first reaction isn't that he's used his skill and training to develop a better method. Rather, it just looks like yet another LN sales pitch.

He probably has no association with LN and is just an enthusiastic customer. I know its unfair of me to accuse him. But that's the first thing that crosses my mind when I see him reach for, and recommend a tool. Last time I watched his video , I remember breathing a sigh of relief when he said any old bench grinder will do. In essence, I'm going to teach you a skill, not sell you a tool.

I really like watching RC, even the scripted side kick. But sometimes he appears too smooth. I think I'm more comfortable with a guy who struggles a bit more like I do and occassionally cuts himself.

Speaking of that guy, I had a very brief conversation with him in which he was discussing his disdain or disappointment with the consumerism that has over taken woodworking. I must admit I hadn't really thought too much about how I plug into that. For no particular reason, I don't buy new tools, so to some extent, I feel I'm immune to consumerism. But not unlike Rob Cosman, all too often my solution to the problem at hand is the acquisition of a tool or a better tool, and not a skill.

Its just dawning on me that Chris Schwarz is way ahead of me on this. I think he's working actively on this very issue. I don't know if anybody else is interested in this, but I'd like to know what Chris thinks about this and if or how its shaping what he's doing. His last article seemed to have this sort of undercurrent.

Adam

Rebate wisdom questioned

bill tindall

>Let me begin by saying that I have great respect for the wisdom of the people on this forum so I seriously consider this wisdom even when my frst impression of a suggestion is not enthusiastic. And, I am not adverse to crutchs, patrticularly in cases where I do something only occasionally and therefore don't maintain profeciency. But the more I have thought about the rebate idea the less benefit I see to it. There must be numerous easier ways to accomplish the goal of end alignment and orthogonal orientation. Perhaps I do not sufficiently appreaciate its benefits, so a question.....

How is the tedium of cutting this thing any better than just clamping or holding a board to the outside face of the pin board and butting the tail board against it to obtain regestration? I don't think I have ever had a registration problem, for as B.C. says "you can feel 0.001". That is way more accurate than I can saw to a line.

A problem I think I have had is slipping while knife marking and the clamp or weight on the tail board idea will solve that concern. To get a good knife mark I push hard and I suspect this is a flawed technique. Any suggestions for this step?

Re: Rob's rebate

Michael Recchione

>Adam,

I've been in this space for a long time now. I haven't bought a new tool in years, (except for "truly different" stuff, like when I got into turning), and have been trying to focus on really learning to use a subset of the tools I have so that they're extensions of my hand. I say "a subset" because, like most of us, I went nuts buying stuff I didn't really need when I first started out. It's amazing what an inexperienced newbie can be convinced that he absolutely has to have by hanging out in the various online SGFHs and reading the bunch of coffee table tool-porn books published by Taunton and others.

I find I've totally morphed from the "What new tool can I justify buying for this project?" mindset to "I have enough tools. How can I build this thing with the tools I have?".

There are a lot of ways to enjoy the woodworking hobby. If you're an exclusively hand-tool kind of guy, you've already made a decision that the process is more important than the product, at least from the quantity point of view. Minimalism with a primary focus on developing skills is just an extension of that same kind of thinking, for me at least. In any case, it's what gives me pleasure, and it's a lot cheaper, too! :-)

P.S. As I understand it, RC is the Canadian distributer for L-N.

Re: Marking dovetails -jig

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>I use the attached jig fairly often to align the tail board to the pin board.. I can then concentrate on transferring and marking the tails to the pin board. You guessed it, I'm a tails first kind of guy.

When I begin chopping out the tails or pins, I insert a 1/4 in. board between the horizontal base , the caulm, and the piece being dovetailed so as not to mark up the jig.

Very quick and easy to adjust...

Norman

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

Derek Cohen (in Perth Australia)

>"To get a good knife mark I push hard and I suspect this is a flawed technique. Any suggestions for this step?"

Hi Bill

Your knifing may be pushing against board and moving it. I wonder if using an awl instead might not solve this issue? I have found that a sharp awl produces a clean line with less effort than a thin blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Rob's rebate

Frank D. in Montreal

>"As I understand it, RC is the Canadian distributer for L-N."

Hi Michael, you're right.

I think this topic is very interesting, a little OT in this thread maybe, but it's a concern of mine. Woodworkers are surely targets of the marketing done by the tool companies, and it's not always easy to separate woodworking from acquiring woodworking tools. I noticed Chris' concern for this in his last article and appreciated it. Now that I have most of the basic tools that I need (as well as many others...yes I am guilty of consumerism) I try to justify new tools insofar as they allow me to acquire new skills. I don't need another spokeshave (even if the LN ones are prettier than the ones that I have, mine work), but a lathe would open up a realm of possibilities that don't exist for me now. That would make the purchase justifiable to me.

Re: Rob's rebate

Dean J in MN

>

... but a lathe would open up a realm of possibilities that don't exist for me now. That would make the purchase justifiable to me.

Don't forget that you probably already own the tools to build yourself a nice lathe... :)

-Dean

Re: clamps, rebates and rulers

paul womack

>If I'm not in a hurry and I'm after a very precise joint I use a pair of those cheap corner clamps. They hold the stock exactly where you want it and nothing moves around so you get accurate marks. But it takes time to set it all up.

Yeah. This trick appears to be getting more common. Accurate as you like, slow to do.

text and pictures, dovetails with mitre clamps

Jeff Gorman has a variation of RC's rebate trick - an "applied rebate", if you will. Looks no quicker than the clamps to me :-)

Jeff Gormans technique

BugBear

I wish... (I don't want to go off on a rant but)

Steve Kubien

>...I was able to succumb to all of the ads and hype from the various tool companies and their catalogues. Lack of $$$ doesn't allow it.

I'm with you Frank. I've got a basic set of tools which allows me to build a large number of projects. Casework, small cabinets, tables, jewelary boxes and the like are well within the reach of my tools (occasionally, I even complete something). I have found that lately if I need/want a tool for a specific purpose, I try to build it. That's how my scrub plane and framesaw, my good spokeshave (from the LV kit) and my travisher have come about (even made my own iron for it). These are fun projects which don't take a heap of time or fancy tools to make.

Look at the variety of bench planes available today and it can make your head spin (no telling what it does to the beginner). Let's see, standard and low angle jack planes...#5's, 5-1/4's, 5-1/2's. Smoothers...#3's, #4's, #4.5's...low angle, 45, 50, 55, 60 degree bedding angles...iron, woodie, bronze or infill. Cruise control and air con. I like simple stuff and for me that means one jointer, a smoother (45 degree woodie), a shoulder plane, a plow plane, a LA block, a scrub and (somewhere) a jack plane. If I get into more figured hardwoods, I can justify a high angle smoother. Maybe a dedicated plane for shooting end grain. Some people want all the latest toys and I understand that. But, do they really make you a better or even more efficient woodworker? Who knows, maybe someday I'll have enough $$$ to find out for myself. Until then, I'll continue to buy the best and most versatile tools I can afford and make what I cannot.

One last thing before I get off my soapbox which is sagging mightily under the stress put upon it... Frank, I don't consider getting some turning tools (and a lathe) something which would be tough to justify. You are right, it opens new possibilities that don't exist and is another form of woodworking altogether. A new #8 jointer to sit beside the two #7's (flat and corrugated sole) you already own probably wouldn't open many new possibilities. But you already know that...

Ok, the soapbox is starting to creak and I am afraid of heights.

Rspectfully,

Steve Kubien

Re: Marking dovetails -jig

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>That's a great jig IMO. Looks like what you've done is made a small twin-screw end vise, with a top clamp. Something maybe you've thought about, but I'll mention here, is that if that top clamp stick were a block about 2x2, you'd have a great paring guide built into this jig.

Wiley

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Hi Bill,

I'm not selling anything--however anybody wants to work is cool with me. With that said as overall context, I'll try to provide an answer to your question.

There are many ways to get tails/pins board registration. Here's what I like about the rebate, in addition to the registration benefit...When you're doing lapped dovetails, you have two "baselines" to satisfy--the scribe line on the tails board, and the line of tail ends in the end grain of the pins board. What the rebate does is not just register the two boards--it will zero out the error at both lines. A side benefit is that it will overlap and conceal minor sins committed at the pins board scribe line.

BTW, I have planed this joint and find it fiddly. I can saw it quickly, using the same paring block that I use for paring.

Also, no new tools were needed. Just my regular stuff.

Wiley

Re: Marking dovetails -jig

Stephen Kirk in Quakertown PA

>That looks really useful and simple too. I've only tried dovetails a few times with limited luck (very limited, actually), and I took the problems to be my sawing (always need practice there) and my ability to mark things. Maybe this will help me a bit and reduce the chance for error.

Re: Marking dovetails -jig

Paul Kierstead

>Having seen him use this jig, he does use it as a paring guide as it is, and it seems to provide "enough" registration.

Re: Rob's rebate not OT

Adam Cherubini

>From what little I know of Michael Recchione, I would definitely place him in the anti-consumerism category.

But though we hand tool folks may be somewhat anti-establishment, we're not by definition anti-consumeristic.

So people like me and me, choosing only old tools, are still choosing and buying tools essentially as panaceas.

I don't think this sub thread is OT. To answer Bill's question, my knee jerk would be to ignore Rob's rebate because from 10,000 feet, it just looks like ad copy to me.

Adam

Re: Rebate wisdom questioned

Dan Moening

>I am slowly developing my knifing technique.

Rather than pressing down hard to make the reference in a single cut...I make 1 or 2 {sometimes several} passes. This allows me to gradually deepen the line without undue pressure moving things about.

The trick for me is not to cut off the inside of the tail and be sure the knife is flat against the inner wall.

I've found that holding the knife like a pencil has also increased my ability to get a clean line. Rather than holding it like a steak knife.

~Dan.

Re: Marking dovetails -jig

Wiley Horne--Glendora, CA

>Yep. I can see where it's excellent the way it is, so never mind my suggestion above. This is really an excellent tool, just as presented.

Wiley

Re: Marking dovetails -jig

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>Hello Wiley,

Yes, forgot to mention that part.

Once the tails or pins are marked, I pull either board back and register the baseline along the edge of the caul and the caul as a paring guide.

I do insert a thin 1/4 in. scrap board between the piece and the base of the jig to keep from marking it up with chisel blows.

Norman