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FWW/ Lee Valley patent

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FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#1

FWW/ Lee Valley patent

Dean Lapinel

>While I agree with Lee valley that they have a right to protect their patent as expressed (by FWW) on page 8, I think the wording from FWW was intended to make LV look like "bad guys".

FWW states "any attempt to make this jig would violate that patent. In respect of their request, we ask our readers not to make this tool themselves, but instead to buy one from Lee valley Tools.

While it was an error to promote a previously (and well known) patent) I don't think LV is heavy handed with individuals. I believe LV would simply seek a retraction- not a threat to subscribers that duplicate their product. In other words, I don't think FWW did LV any favors in their apology.

I really think it is harmful to promote copies of their patent but I really don't think LV cares if individuals make the product for themselves (even though this is a violation). Maybe I'm wrong, but LV always seemed to be a kind company.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#2

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

mikew

>Hi Dean,

Intentionally casting LV in a bad light or not, it is difficult to impune the character of a company such as LV. There has been too much testimony of LV's positive contributions to woodworkers everywhere for the FWW retraction to be but a blip in scheme of things.

I too would make a publication aware (or a company seeking to reproduce even a modified version) of any patent I held (If I had one). Unfortunately, in the world of patents one has to protect it or what's the point in having one?

That the editors of FWW were "unaware" that the tip that was submitted wasn't an infringement says more about FWW than their retraction does about LV.

Take care, Mike

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#3

What issue is that?

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Must be the Tools and Shops issue, as it is not in the Dec. issue... And I didn't see anything on Taunton's web site.

DC

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#4

Re: What issue is that?

Dean Lapinel

>Yes- The Tools & Shops issue.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#5

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

ThomD

>Could you describe what is at issue here? This thread starts in the middle, and that magazine issue isn't available locally yet.

LV is one of those companies who will send you a refund if they drop a tool price, or a newly evolved part for your product if they build a fix. It just arrives in the mail, you don't even have to ask. In all my years, the only other company I have dealt with that did that was... Fine Woodworking that sent out refunds to people who had bought their videos back when then had a higher price.

Not sure what this issue is, but you can usually make anything you want for your own use...

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#6

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

Todd Stock

>This is not aimed at the Lee Valley case in particular, but rather, at the abuse of the patent process in general.

Based on what I've seen lately, just about any submission to the Patent Office will be approved, ensuring that the lawyers will be taking money from both sides until one of the parties runs out of funds. The Patent Office's approach seems to be to allow massive overlap in claims, with the expectation that the courts will provide the remedy.

The real question to ask is not whether a home-made version of a commercial, patented product is a violation, but rather whether that same product existed as prior art, awaiting a laxer attitude on the part of the examiners...

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#7

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

ThomD

>I agree with you there, I have seen patents for stuff that has existed for hundreds if not thousands of years. There does seem to be a willingness to issue patents with the thought that rather than turning it down at the office it should be issued, since it can always be litigated.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#8

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

mikew

>I agree about personal use. But that doesn't mean that it should be published in a commercial magazine.

Mike

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#9

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

ThomD

>I don't know the law on that. The Napster case idea that you can be liable for promoting others do something that infringes a patent (or whatever that was about) might put you at risk. But they are worst promoting the idea you should do a legal thing, make your own? Funny given the amount of advertising that Veritas does in FWW that this sort of thing should even be a public issue.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#10

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

Dean Lapinel

>Patent law does not allow an individual to manufacture a patented object, even for themselves.

My point was that FWW was in error for publishing those plans that were well known to be Lee Valley property by most woodworkers. A simple retraction and apology was all that was necessary. The way it is written though, suggests that LV wouldn't tolerate individuals making there own (for personal use) and I don't believe that they would care.

The object in question was the magnetic dovetail jig that was listed as a "Metrhods of work" tip or contribution.

Now, To clarify, I like FWW (prefer Pop WW) and love LV.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#11

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

Todd Stock

>Again, I'm not focusing on LV, but instead the broader issue of patenting anything and everything, without regard to the fact that it's been in general use for years. I'm waiting for some clown to patent one of Adam's get-ups as 'enhanced, ergonomically correct woodworking clothing'...only a matter of time.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#12

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

ThomD

>Thanks, that clears it up. Probably the MOW is in an issue I have.

"Patent law does not allow an individual to manufacture a patented object, even for themselves."

That's news to me. I've heard the contrary said over and over. Need to straighten that wrinkle out.

The dovetail jig is basically a mganetic saw guide, and that's been around for some time.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#13

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

Brent Smith

>OK, now that I know what we're talking about here.........My question is why would FWW print something in methods of work that is obviously a patented tool and has been around for a while?

Brent

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#14

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent *LINK*

Dan Donaldson

>I am not a lawyer nor play one, but here is at least part of the statutes governing patents. I ain't going to even try to interpret;-)


Patent infringement.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#15

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

ThomD

>Thanks!

Here is the LV patent.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=28&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=dovetail&s2=jig&OS=dovetail+AND+jig&RS=dovetail+AND+jig

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#16

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

mikew

>I know that in the case of LV, they tend to do the patent search/research. And in this case, the concept does seem unique to them. That is the application of what they made.

Many patents are really a variation of a form anyway. A supposed enhancement, etc., that is claimed to be fundemental to the thing's operation or use.

But as was written by another, it is silly in the way the retraction was worded. What isn't silly is pursuing one's patent right. It is near an obligation if one expects their patent to hold up to infringement.

Well, I be done. This issue only lives if we keep it alive.

Take care, Mike

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#17

It's funny

Michael Recchione

>I was asking the same question after I saw the apology today. I was under the impression that patent protection didn't extend to non-commercial use by private individuals. But I did a bunch of searching this evening and all of the "general information about patents" sites that I hit listed the protections offered by a patent as the right to prevent the someone from making, selling or using the invention. This implies that a patent holder could go after a private individual. In practice, of course, this seems ridiculous - no company has pockets deep enough to enforce patents against individuals that way. However, some recent cases where IPR holders went after individuals who illegaly downloaded copyrighted material for their own use proved me wrong again - the companies chose to do this in a very public way to make dramatic examples of a few individuals in order to scare anyone else thinking about infringing.

Practically speaking, a patent on something that is easily made and easily copied (like the invention referred to in the FWW tip) borders on unenforcable - since there isn't any public record like there would be for an illegal download, nobody would know if I made and used ten of these things in the privacy of my own shop. All I would need to do was see one, and if so inclined, I could make my own and nobody would be the wiser. Even if I didn't see one with my own eyes, issued patents are public information and are available to anyone who wants to look at them.

A company like LV depends on the hassle factor to sell these things - if it's cheap enough, most people would opt to buy one ready made rather than go to the trouble of making one for themselves. The main purpose of the patent is to prevent another manufacturer from mass-producing a zillion of them.

However, it's one thing for a few people to copy something they saw and liked, it's another thing for an influential publication in the field to encourage people to infringe by giving the impression (innocently, I'm sure) that the invention is not protected. So I believe LV did what it had to do by giving FWW notice and asking for a retraction. I also believe FWW's wording of the retraction was unnecessarily mealy-mouthed and did try to make LV look like the bad guy for asserting their legal rights.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#18

Re: It's funny

ThomD

>I agree with your point, though downloads are different in the sense that they are the product in question. This is more like going after people for humming a popular song.

The jig patent, while it wanders all over the parchment, is about some pretty specific details. The key would be to vary those details to some necesary extent. I always thought this device was a fairly artful riff on some of their favorite things: Al extrusions; low friction plastics; and magnets. Those wouldn't have to be the most efficient ways of making such a thing in the home shop.

Let's not forget that FWW has some turf to protect also. They probably don't want to write too wholehearted a pass for this kind of thing since they are in the business of producing content that would narrow significantly if we just all decided to keep our ideas for our own use.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#19

Lemme tell you one thing...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>If one needs to go through all that legalese just to have an invention patented, that's not much of an incentive...

DC

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#20

Re: Lemme tell you one thing...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>I remember a thread (I believe it was here but it may have been pre Badger Pond draining) in wich Rob Lee was very clear about the corporate position on patent infringment. In light of the serious investment in time and resources to patent anything, he specified that protecting that investment was a priority. And IIRC he wasn't the least unpleasant in his explanation. Nuf Said.JR

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#21

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

Rob Lee

>Hi Guys -

Can't comment too much about this - but will make a few points.

Firstly - we were not consulted about the wording of what's been just printed in the magazine - I saw it myself for the first time on Wednesday. The comments attributed to us, were not made by us.

Second - as far as I know, individuals are certainly free to make whatever they want, for their own use, patented or not.

Third - Under patent law, there is something called "incitement to infringe", in which the offense is to teach how, or to prompt/promote copying of patented products.

Fourth - we have not advertised in FWW since issue 171...'bout a year ago. Nor we carry, or advertise in, any other Taunton press magazines at the present time.

You can draw your own conclusions from that...

For magazines that publish "how-to's" or reader tips and techniques, it's almost a certainty that sooner or later a tip covered by a patent will inadvertently be published... Everyone makes mistakes, and it's difficult to to keep on top of every patent in a field. The reasonable and ethical course is to admit to the possibility, exercise due diligence, and apologize when an error's made. Most magazines have no problem with doing so.

Cheers -

Rob Lee

President

Lee Valley Tools Ltd.

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#22

win - win?

Michael Recchione

>I'm not an attorney, and this isn't legal advice.

(disclaimer mode off now).

I've looked at a lot of patents over the years, mostly to support our IP Law folks in either deciding whether to continue maintaining a particular patent, or in deciding whether we have a good case for asserting one of our patents against a competitor. I've also had to work with our lawyers on applications for my own patents. That still doesn't make me a patent attorney or an expert on patents in general - I'm just familiar with the prevailing style in my industry and my company.

That said, the claims on this patent seem a little strange. We typically write our applications so that the first independent claim is the broadest claim you could make about the invention that would stand on its own, i.e. it should not depend on its own dependent claims in order to be valid. It appears to my (non-lawyer, not offering a legal opinion) eyes that every claim in this patent is dependent on Claim 1, and that Claim 1 itself is so broad that almost any miter box or bench hook (or any number of other devices that read on prior art or are obvious extensions of prior art) would be well described by it.

As I said a couple of times, I'm not a lawyer and this isn't a legal opinion. But it seems like a funny way to write a patent based on what I've seen.

However, I've seen funnier - my own company has (not on purpose), in a few instances, filed and obtained more than one patent on more or less the same invention - different technical teams, different lawyers, maybe different examiners. Essentially, the patent office has shifted responsibility for the patent prosecution process to the courts, which essentially means that the deepest pockets win all the time. It stinks.

Regarding LV and FWW's actions on this thing, one thing that an old boss of mine drummed into my head is that any patent is a good patent until it's successfully challenged. The segment of the patent code that Dan posted a link to states that anyone who encourages others to infringe on a patent is guilty of infringement. So FWW was clearly in trouble with the tip. LV probably doesn't care if you take the trouble to build yourself a dovetail jig with magnets - most people won't go to the trouble, and those that would probably are allergic to buying stuff anyway, so it would be no skin off their nose. And they'd have a real hard time finding out you did it anyway.

But a further tidbit is that failure to assert patent rights can be nullify those rights. If a competitor could show that LV let this tip go unchallenged, they would then be free to infringe at will. At the same time, for the reasons you pointed out, neither LV nor FWW would have wanted to get into a real battle over this, as each depends on the other's good will to some extent. Besides, it's probably not worth it. So the mildly worded retraction was enough for LV to protect its rights from infringement from real competitors while still allowing FWW to save face and not establish a precedent requiring them to do full patent searches on future tips.

So maybe the whole thing worked out for the best after all. I'm glad I practiced and learned to cut dovetails without a jig :-).

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#23

I should have read Rob's post before writing this.

Michael Recchione

>I don't really need a lot more tools, but I have to find some reasons to buy from this man. I wish more people in business had his approach.

- Mike

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#24

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

Dean Lapinel

>Rob,

I have to start avoiding reading your posts. I succesfully avoided buying your new (beautiful) hand router (for now) but every time you post something that shows you care about us guys I get the urge to buy something from the catalog.

I also try to avoid looking at the "What's new' section but spellbound, I somehow arrive there and start pulling out my credit card before my wife enters the room and slaps me back into financial reality.

your company's creativity, R&D, friendliness is an unfair form of business practice that puts us consumers at risk of marital strain.

Thanks!

Re: FWW/ Lee Valley patent

#25

Re: I should have read Rob's post before writing t

ThomD

>The other thing is, I knew at least one guy who developed some stuff they put out there. A well know local turner at the time. His rights are being protected too. Not to suggest any one person's rights are more important.

Periodically I get an idea for an invention, and it's nice to know there is somewhere to go to commercialize it, though in my case I just try to sit still until the feeling passes.

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