surfacing rough stock

Re: thick stock

paul womack

>I'm just wondering why you don't continue working the initial face with the jointer plane and then the smoothing plane?

If the rough stock is a good deal thicker than my required dimensions, I'll scrub (or whatever) from both sides, fairly uniformly.

In this way I (try to...) avoid any residual seasoning stress in the timber cupping it as I remove material.

Doing all the thicknessing from one side strikes me as a needless risk.

BugBear (paranoid!)

Re: surfacing rough stock

Nemo Tools

>Here is the procedure I use, mostly from "Essentials of Woodworking" by Grifffith, published 1908.

Before planing, saw cut your stuff to rough dimension. There is no profit in planing a big long board to truth. The wind, cup and crown will stack up over the length and width and cause much extra work and waste to true it out.

1. If the board is in wind or cup, which is almost always is, take the least desireable face, the one not to be the reference face, and roughly level it with the scrub or jack, until it will sit without rocking.

2, Turn the board over and remove wind and cup from face board with scrub, smooth out with jack until it passes inspection with winding sticks and squares in all directions. Mark as reference face.

3. Joint the best edge until it is square with the reference face. Mark as reference edge.

3. Scribe a line around all edges to the thickness desired from the reference face.

4. Scrub the off face nearly to the line and then finish with the jack to the line.

6. Scribe the width from the reference edge and plane down nearly to the mark.

7. Shoot the off edge to the mark.

8. Square the best end.

9. Lay off length and cut and work to the line.

Throughout, constantly test with try square, winding sticks, etc.

I can tell you from bitter experience that getting your stuff true is critical for all subsequent operations. Note: try to mark all subsequent lines and cuts from the reference face, edge and end.

reference face

Jim in N. Va.

>"1. If the board is in wind or cup, which is almost always is, take the least desireable face, the one not to be the reference face, and roughly level it with the scrub or jack, until it will sit without rocking."

Whether I pick the best or worst face to be the reference face depends on the part I'm making. If I'm building a carcass, I put the reference face inside and use that to make all joint layouts. I'm most concerned that the inside of the case be square. The outside only has to be smooth. Just my way of working...nobody ever accused me of being mainstream.

--Jim

Re: surfacing rough stock

Paul Kierstead

>Why you flip:

The principle is that you are pressing down on the board. If the opposite surface of the board (i.e. the one against the bench) is twisted otherwise not firmly against the the bench for its entire surface, then when you push down you will distort the board, causing uneven planing.

To offset this you get oneside very roughly in a plane (it certainly doesn't have to be perfect, just ok), and use it as a bearing surface on the bench.

The other way to accomplish this is to shim under the board so it makes a stable bearing surface. I have found this to be a major PITA and find the rough flatten and flip method works much better.

As an aside, if you do finish the first side just a little more, it also makes a great bearing surface to slide through a thickness planer ...

Re: surfacing rough stock

Roger Nixon

>I agree with Paul K.

A couple of other points. I don't scrub with the grain. Initially I look for the high points of the board anc scrub cross grain until they are removed. After I have several areas on the board in the same plane, I scrub diagonally each way to get the board fairly flat.

Yes, I do use a jack plane after the scrub. I put aboout 3/16" camber my #40 scrub (roughly translates to 1.5" radius) then I follow with a jack (a #5) which has 1/16" camber. I will finish flattening with a #5 1/2 or #7 (depending on length of the board) with a very small camber of a few thousandths.

I would add...

Ellis Walentine

>...a tip and a heads-up. The tip is that once you have flattened your reference surface and gauges the thickness on all four edges, grab your block plane and chamfer each edge to the gauge line. This makes a perfect visual reference when planing the opposite face.

The heads-up has to do with rough vs finished thickness. If you will need to remove quite a bit of material, say, thicknessing a 5/4 board to 7/8" or something like that, I suggest splitting the difference so that you plane your reference surface flat, remove half the difference from the other face and then remove the balance from your first face. This helps assure that if the moisture gradient in the wood is not uniform throughout, you do not unbalance it by removing too much material from one face or the other, which can result in subsequent cupping.

Ellis Walentine

I'm not so sure

Adam Cherubini

>I suggest splitting the difference so that you plane your reference surface flat, remove half the difference from the other face and then remove the balance from your first face. This helps assure that if the moisture gradient in the wood is not uniform throughout, you do not unbalance it by removing too much material from one face or the other, which can result in subsequent cupping.

I'm not convinced this is true. I think its wise to plane both sides. But if you have to remove some considerable amount of wood, I think you are better off removing it from the sap side. The idea is that long rings cause the cupping, shortening them, breaking them reduces cupping. So I seek rings that look like 1/4 sawn stuff. I look at rings like stretched rubber bands. The more you cut, the less cupping will occur.

I could be wrong- been a while since I read "Understanding Wood", and I'm not sure I understood it then!

Adam

You should be...

HC Sakman

>Which part you're not sure about Adam?

Preferably removing sap side makes sense and what Ellis says make sense. Both of your infos are correct imo.

Chico...

Re: surfacing rough stock

HC Sakman

>"unless they get trapped underneath the plane) between each stroke like rob cosman does in the video!"

That's part of the show and "don't try this at home" warning should have attached to it. ;-)

Chico...

Surfacing one face....

HC Sakman

>....leads to further cupping or bowing. (depending on the grain orientation)

DAMHIKT

Chico...

Don't use a scrub

John Hoffman

>Scrub planes are to short to flatten. They will only make things worse unless you are really good. The jointer is the plane to use for flattening. Only use the scrub to remove stock when your planner/jointer is broken or when you run out of meds and had a bad day. I will use the jack plane set to a really rank cut to remove stock then hit it with the jointer set to take around 4-6 thousand shaving. The jointer plane will flatten the stock. Then follow with the smoother. I have Rough to Ready but don't follow it. His method takes to much time and can be avoided by flattening with the jointer.

Re: surfacing rough stock

Adam Cherubini

>If you are removing tremendous amounts of stock and you don�t care what you end up with, the scrub plane is okay. For basic flattening, its advantageous to have a longer plane. I use a 16� wooden fore plane. A #6 might be a good alternative. Alan Breed mentioned his preference for a #6 as a good all around tool- long enough for edge work, good for surface work.

Anyway, the long roughing plane is going to help you find the low spots (because it won�t plane them), and will tell you when you plane a crown out. It doesn�t matter which direction you plane. If your roughing plane has an open mouth, you risk taking a big chunk out if you work with the grain and it suddenly rises on you.

I rarely use my try plane (what you are calling a jointer) to flatten a face. I certainly don�t use it as a simple matter of procedure. Usually, I can go straight from fore plane to smoother. But keep in mind, I don�t prefer flat surfaces. I like a bit of movement so�

The only other thing I would mention (I guess along the same lines as what I just said) is� as you evaluate different bottles of snake oil, choose the bottle from the sharpy who shares your esthetics and sensibilities, and whose technique seems to be the fastest. Esthetics aside, guys with basic surfacing techniques that seem really complicated or time consuming appear to have goals very different from mine for example. They may be selling planes and not furniture, or their surfaces may be their goal (and there are several guys here in that category). These different intentions make your comparison and our assistance a bit more complicated.

So just in terms of full disclosure, I like rough surfaces, and I find tear out charming. My work has many many visual features so fine surface work is unimportant to me, maybe even disadvantageous. I want to be able to surface 8bdft in 5 or 10 minutes.

Adam

You said it Chico...don't ask me either...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>

I agree with you Jim...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Saves a ton of time and planing this way. When it's applicable...

you guessed it

frank_shic (walnut c k, ca)

>paul, i'm all about taking SHORTCUTS whenever possible! i'm primarily trying to learn how to flatten one side so that i can feed it through the planer and then surface it with a smoothing plane. good to know that i wasn't totally off base!

speed is good

frank_shic (walnut c k, ca)

>since i'm not a professional woodworker, getting the basic surfacing as quickly as possible is a concern given my limited time constraints (1-2 hours in the evening when SWMBO permits it!). i'll have to try just using the jack plane to surface eventually, but i'd like to put this scrub plane to some solid use first!

there sure are a 100 ways to skin a wombat, huh?

frank_shic (walnut c k, ca)

>

Re: Don't use a scrub

frank_shic (walnut c k, ca)

>can you really use a jointer plane as the FIRST surfacing plane? i used to think that the jointer plane was the hand plane equivalent of a jointer machine! will try this method as well... thanks!

Re: speed is good

Christopher Schwarz

>Frank,

I have found considerable evidence that the scrub plane was not built for cabinetmakers, but instead for carpenters.

In Stanley's catalogs from the early 20th century, the company touted the plane as being useful for when a rip saw was not appropriate. And the plane was mostly a 20th century phenomenon, and it disappeared after the circ saw was invented.

In fairness, check R.A. Salaman's book. He states this length of tool was used by Europeans for rough stock removal -- though there is no mention of whether this is a carpenter's tool.

Personally, a scrub plane is harder for me to be accurate with than a plane that falls into the category of "fore plane."

Chris

tool fetishes

Paul Kierstead

>Well, of course, the key here is "accuracy". Using a scrub plane for accurate work would be quite a bother.

But, somewhere, that perfectly smooth, flat and square board started as a tree. It had all sorts of non-accurate tools applied to it. A scrub plane *can* be one of those steps where appropriate, or not as anyone wishes. If you have a 1/4" or 1/2"" twist, getting the stock off can be interesting. Long planes take longer since -- even with significant blade extension -- they contact the wood very little. A scrub plane can easily go too far and take too much off. Either one will take the wood off, it is up to the user to decide to use a rough tool or something less rough.

One thing that tends to drive me nuts: People ask a question and it always comes down to *which* plane is used. Responses like "a jointer is best for XXX" are all focused on which tool when in fact the technique is probably at least 5x more important. The OP asked a question about process and technique and mostly got comments on which plane to use, and beyond that they never asked what size of board, etc., how rough it was, etc. the OP was interested in.

Re: Don't use a scrub

John Hoffman

>Frank, I would use the jointer to flatten a board as the longer bed is the item that does the job. I would use a jack plane first to hack away what I needed then the jointer then the smoother. The jack set at 8-12 thousand shavings, the jointer at 4-6 thousands and the smoother at the smallest possible. The tearout you get with the jack is removed by the jointer the jointer tearout by the smoother. Adjust as the piece requires. I learned this from a very knowledgeable person.

Regards

JH

Moxon perhaps?

Christopher Schwarz

>

Re: surfacing rough stock

Dan CLermont in Burnaby

>Start with the concave side and get it sort of flat and then do the other side as your first side is now a reference point and should be reasonably flat.

YOu want to take an equal amount off both sides so the board does not twist or move. If you remove all of your wood from one side the moisutre content will be different and you will be back to square one

Rob Cosman removes the shaving from the mouth of his plane after every stroke so they do not get caught on the sole of the plane.

Dan CLermont

Re: surfacing rough stock

HC Sakman

>Rob was in my shop for the entire evening while he was at the Victoria show. We played and talked quite a bit. Believe me, you don't have to remove every shaving after every cut. Rob is a great woodworker, showman, salesman and teacher. Throwing the fine fluffy shavings in the air is part of the "show & tell". I mean he's not planing wood at the show to prove he's good at it, that's given; He's selling handplanes, hence the show off of fluffy shavings.

Chico...