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Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

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Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#51

Further thinking

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>There is a strain of elitism among Neanders. We can get into thinking we know the One and True Way.

Like so many of us here, I'm a hybrid, using hand or power tools as I think I need to. I'm interested in hand tools because I continue to be fascinated by what a really sharp edge can do. I note the members of this community who take that fascination to another whole level, asking what a really sharp edge at 57.4324798 degrees can do, when held in a woodie plane made of jarrah and used to plane Carpathian walnut grown on the north slope of the Slovakian Carpathians (just teasing, folks! just teasing) - I love the juxtaposition of what is traditionally seen as relatively low tech and very high refinement of that technology.

I am also aware of those operations that a hand tool can do more efficiently, more quickly, and more quietly, than powered tools.

But it's going to be a long time before I sell my table saw (in fact, I have my No. 2 son on constant lookout for a $50 Unisaw, like the one he found).

But thanks, Ken, for reminding us that we can get too puffed up...

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#52

Re: Further thinking

kenc

>Bill,

As I mentioned, it was really a moment of reflection that made me pose the question. Seeing a test of power morisers in FWW made ME puff up my chest and feel superior. Why? Because I cut mortices with a chisel? Does that make me better than the guy who uses a power motiser or a router and guide to do it?

No, of course not.

I occasionally watch Norm and David Marks on TV. No one could accuse either gentleman of being a "hand tool woodworker". Marks occasionally uses a plane or a chisel - Norm even less so, but both produce very nice pieces - yes, even Norm!

And I bet their power M&T joints will fit better, quicker than my hand cut ones.

Having said that, I wouldn't change the way I do it because it makes ME happy.

And I think that's the concensus here.

Cheers!

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#53

Re: My formula is similar...

kenc

>Luke,

It takes me three months just to adjust the fit of my M&T's!

;-)

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#54

Re: Way OT, Lance or Team?

Dean in Burlinton

>I don't think Lance did so well on Sat. I think the peleton let him off the hook and didn't take advantage of his team's failure and his bad form. He was having trouble getting back to Viny but as soon as Kloden took off they all slowed down. In the old days nobody would have chased and the yellow jersey would have been forced to do all the work. They should have kept attacking him. We will find out today if that was just a bad day or he doesn't have it. If it was just a bad day then all the other team should be kicking themselves cause they had him on the ropes and didn't deliver the knockout punch. T-Mobile should have sent Ullrich...not Kloden. Then Armstrong would have panicked. And why was Ullrich pulling Lance back to the group when he had 2 guys up the road? These guys aren't very smart. Lance must laugh his ass off every night at these guys tactics. They always fall right into his hands.

I am getting confused here....I frequent 2 forums....a woodworking fourm and a cycling forum. I confused at which one I'm on right now :)

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#55

Re: Way OT, Lance or Team?

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Well, unless Lance has a bad day, it's over.

He looked everyone in the eyes and rode off over the horizon today.

He decimated everyone - just rode away. Jan was off 2+ minutes, Basso still lost a minute+.

I think this just shows that Sat may have been bad, but Lance still plays a head game no one can match.

Incredible. I never really thought it would basically end today, but it mostly has - only only thing might be if Lance "spent" himself today, but I doubt it.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#56

Re: Way OT, Lance or Team?

Dean in Burlington

>Greg,

I didn't read your message till I had a chance to see the tour. He did it to them again. Year after year he makes them look like bozo's....especially T-Mobile who where talking so tough after Sat happy at what they did. What a bunch of losers. T-Mobile will never learn. Jan will never win the Tour again. I was surprised with Vinny though. I saw a clip a few days ago with Riis asked how to beat Armstrong....he said "There is only 1 way.....ATTACK". Have you ever seen anyone from CSC attack? What's a matter with these guys? I guess Basso won't be going to the Giro to prepare for the Tour next year.

Now lets review the tactics. Saturday Lance is in trouble and Jan pulls him back to his 2 teamates. Today...Vinny is in trouble and Lance goes to the front and puts the hammer down. Now we know why Lance is a champion and the smartest guy in the Tour.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#57

Re: Question on work times

Sgian Dubh

>Alan, I'm not sure what your question is really. Except that maybe you were illustrating that you could make a three drawer chest in a very short time, and how could you do that?

I too can work like that and knock out stuff in double quick order if need be. I must admit that I'm not much of a handtool only buff being a working furniture maker, but it's often forgotten by working furniture makers, let alone amateurs how much time is simply lost to other necessary functions.

No worker works at 100% efficiency- only machines that never break down do that, and most machines break down too, so even they aren't 100% efficient. Most workers are only about 65% efficient, meaning 35% of their time is spent doing things like picking fluff out of their navel, and other non productive functions.

The estimating system I touched upon has built into it the natural inefficiencies of production. As an illustration it's typical to assign to a working furniture making business owner with no staff a working week of about 25 hours, on the assumption that 40 hours is a normal working week-- which may, or may not be the case.

A typical one man band furniture design and make business that has all the duties of running a business will typically spend fifteen hours a week out of a forty hour week on non-billable functions. These are things like workshop and machinery/tool maintenance, office work, promotional activities, pricing, design work (sometimes) etc..

Essentially the billable hours must pay for the non-billable hours, plus money required for daft things like holidays, weekends, illness, pension provision, savings, hobbies-- e.g., playing and watching rugby at the weekend- investment in new tools and equipment, salary for the proprietor, and perhaps shockingly for some--- the dirty word, profit.

So the two hours billing for an M&T covers more than just the actual time spent on excavating a mortice and cutting a tenon. All things being equal, and with nothing else to think about I can whack out a simple M&T in fifteen-twenty minutes, and that's with hand tools only.

Hand tool woodworking is the rock upon which my woodworking ability is built and I've moved on a long, long way from those basics. But it has to be remembered when pricing a job that peak efficiency is never attainable over an average working week.

My challenge to you would be to make two of those chests you put up as illustration not just once, but two every week-- and continue to do so for the next year, day after day, week after week and month after month. What would you do with them all, and how would you fund the making of each successive chest? These are the sort of problems a business faces, and estimating is just a small part of the whole.

You'd need to find a buyer for each chest, because without buyers how would you buy the wood required to make the next one, and if you're having to deal with those problems, perhaps you might need to run a set of accounts which might be computerised, and computers cost money, and so do programmes like QuickBoooks Pro, plus you need to spend time learning how to use the programme, and so on, and so on.

All I'm saying is that it is possible to cut some M&T joints faster than the two hour allowance I gave, but there are many things in a working workshop that are in a sense incidental to the job and must be accounted for in the overall pricing methodology.

There is not a cat in Hells chance that I would be suckered into quoting 22 hours only to make the chest you illustrated-- and a quote it has to be borne in mind is not necessarily only the time it takes to execute a piece of furniture. Slainte.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#58

Re: Pricing method

Sgian Dubh

>You're absolutely correct Pam. It's a method for pricing billable work. What you charge for each billable hour depends upon a bunch of factors, particularly the cost of being in business. Billable hours must cover all the costs of being 'in business', and essentially must provide for profit.

In the US I'd expect billable time to be charged out at anywhere between about $45 to $100 per hour. Here in the UK I charge for making only at £45 per hour, plus materials marked up by between 25% and 100%.

For consultancy work, including pure design work-- much more profitable and relatively easy money, there being no product, just words and drawings and a print-out from my printer I charge £55 per hour, plus expenses. But my workshop still sits there costing money whatever I do. Slainte.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#59

Re: You rang?

Sgian Dubh

>Adam, the maths depends on various factors. How are you accounting for worker efficiency? What about jobs that have to be done that no-one ever thinks of, such as tidying up, getting the wood out, returning the cramps to where they belong?

All these things are essential to the running of a workshop, but nobody accounts for them in their speed at joint cutting. other factors come into play, but yes I can mark out and cut by hand a whole slew of mortice and tenons.

The trouble is that tools have to be bought and maintained, and sharpened, and most inconvenient of all, workshops are not free. They cost money to just be there, hence the charge I divulged.

There are certainly other ways of costing work. it just so happens this method works for me. Slainte.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#60

Question on work times response

Alan Bierbaum

>snipped a bunch of stuff talking about overhead.

"There is not a cat in Hells chance that I would be suckered into quoting 22 hours only to make the chest you illustrated-- and a quote it has to be borne in mind is not necessarily only the time it takes to execute a piece of furniture. Slainte. "

I know all about overhead as a full time woodworker who ended up doing a kitchen-per-week for over ten years to earn a living that I could not earn just building furniture.

I would never be suckered into quoting time and materials on any job where a furniture product is involved. I do have to know my time and cost though so that I can give the customer a fixed price that satisfies his needs and my need to earn a decent living.

The accepted business practice is to figure actual materials and labor (direct cost); and then factor in overhead and profit. This is called the loaded hourly rate and is based on actual work time not some puffed up number.

If your method works for you, fine; it is not the "normal" way of figuring time, cost, or profit.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#61

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

kees

>kenc,

I think an elitist-woodworker is a woodworker who gives others/collegues the idea he can have an income from his products, but in reality has another job to pay the bills.

Hand- or machinewoodworker doesn't matter in this case.

I did some research in greenwoodworking and tried to figure out the way an anarchist woodworker like Welshman John Brown did it. I think we never see the bookkeeping of an elitist-woodworker/craftsman.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#62

This is ROTFLMAO funny!!

Wiley Horne

>

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#63

Re: Question on work times response

Sgian Dubh

>It depends I guess on what you call normal practice Alan. I couldn't say if your method is the 'normal' method as it's one that I've never studied in detail and don't use.

Your method seems likely to be just as workable as mine. I don't think it matters much one way or another as long as all fixed and variable costs and expenses are considered, and more factors, and that the specific job, and the business as an entity generates sufficient cash-flow and suitable profit. Slainte.

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