Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

My formula is similar...

Luke Herzberg

>If I recall correctly: Width of tenon divided by length multiplied by the density of the wood minus the width of the sharpest chisel that you can find divided by the thickness of the glue buildup that is in your way on the bench plus the square of the number of band-aids currently on your left hand all divided by 16 oz of beer.

Lessee...that works out to an even 3 months per tenon. I'm barely breaking even as a hobbyist!!

: )

- Luke

PS

Sgian Dubh

>I forgot to mention that the two hour standard rate for executing mortice and tenons by hand was a rate for all types of mortice and tenon.

This would range from the relatively simple bare faced M&T, to haunched M&T's, up through long and short shouldered M&T's with mitreing required for the moulding on the inner edge, and forked M&T's, double M&T's, drawbored M&T's, through wedged M&T's, fox wedged M&T's, etc..

Obviously all these M&T forms take different times to execute, but as a blanket charge, 2 hrs per M&T I've found to be remarkably accurate. You lose some here and gain some there, but on the whole the 2 hr charge works very well.

Put it this way, I've been pricing and selling my work using my modifications on that old pricing methodology I was given all those years ago for nearly thirty years and I can't think that it's ever seriously let me down. I've known far too many furniture designer makers over the years that consistently underprice their work because thay have no pricing methodology in place.

I've just about completed an article on estimating which needs a wee bit of tidying up before I send it off to my various publishers, so maybe one day you will be able to study my method in detail. Slainte.

Re: PS

mike recchione

>Not disbelieving you, just surprised. I guess I never thought much about it. I know that time tends to get away from me when I'm in the shop. The one time I tried working to the clock was for the 1 hour spoon challenge, and I ruined two spoons for rushing.

I'll have to time some complete operations working at a normal pace to see what it's like.

On the other hand, if I picked cheese by smell

Eric Hedberg

>I'd have a pretty bland menu. Uh oh, time to cut and run;-) Eric (Long time pipes lover)

Question on work times

Alan Bierbaum

>I don't doubt that you have old pricing information to back up what you are saying; However ----

When Adam's challenge project was issued last year, his timing information came from old pricing information. The challenge was to build a small chest in two work days based on that information. Hand tool use only. The only concession was that we could use presurfaced wood (did not have to start with rough). My total time was 22 hours for the chest; which included all "design" work (a very sketchy design was furnished). It was a fun project - not a totally stressed out effort. Dovetailed case with drawer runners, shipplapped back, all trim, three dovetailed drawers, and finish in that time.

Alan

You rang?

Adam Cherubini

>I think I agree with Mr. Jones, even if I quibble with the math. Nobody knows this stuff for sure. I know of no sources for 18th c furniture joint times. I've seen prices for late 18th c architectural piecework, and some 19th century furniture piecework.

I do have a lead on a source for a 18th c Phila drawer maker though. Did I say drawer maker? Yeah, drawer maker.

To the point, I don't recall spending more than 15 minutes on a mortise and no more than 10 on any tenon. Though I've been struggling with mortises in red oak at pennsbury manor. Seems like they've taken forever. I rarely work material like this and my mortises tend to be 1/4", so I think its important to consider this when we talk about our own personal experiences.

Pretty sure I have a price for a joint stool somewhere at roughly half a pound. That might be a day or two's work, start to finish probably from rough sawn material, 16 M&T joints, turned legs, drawbored, etc. I have to check that number, but this would be at least twice as fast as Richard's numbers, but again, his point still stands.

I need to do more work on this subject. I intend to revamp the hand tool challenge later this year. I hope it encourages others to look into this a little deeper. How can we talk about authentic tools or techniques without knowing exactly how quickly things were done?

Adam

Re: Yes but...

Dean in Burlinton

>Steve,

You must be feeling goofy. Lance isn't even the most dominating cyclist of all time...never mind athlete of all time. There are 2 cyclist that are much better.

Eddy Merckx has won more races than Lance has even entered. While Lance has won 6 Tours and 1 worlds championship and 0 World Cup Classics. Eddy has won 5 Tours, 5 Tours of Italy, 4 World championships, 3 Tours of Spain, 7 Milan San Remos and at least 20 other World Cup Classics. He entered 1582 races and won 445 of them. Lance has only won like 60 races. He also won the Tour de France, Tour of Italy and World Championships in the same year. Lance only races one race per year.

Now Lance may be the best Tour De France rider of all time....but that's only because of the era of TV we live in.

Now...lets get back to woodworking :)

Re: Way OT, Lance or Team?

Dean in Burlinton

>Greg,

You are absolutly right. I didn't know you knew so much about cycling. The problem I see right now is all these European teams don't seem to be catching on. Lance has not made this a secret the last 6 years but these Euro Teams are still letting Discovery dictate the pace and the outcome. Hopefully we will see a lot of attacks tommorrow and isolate him from his team again. That's the only way these guys can beat him.

Pricing method

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Note that this is Sgian's "pricing" method, not his costing method. This would be the "price" that the shop asks from customers, and can have little to do with how the workers/shop owner is actually paid.

Pam

Re: You rang?

Dean J in MN

>...and I have been deeply pondering Mack Headley's quote of 'One hour per square foot of plank, trued and planed to the desired thickness,'

At first glance, that seems out of line, but...

-Dean

Really?

Adam Cherubini

>

Re: Way OT, Lance or Team?

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Tomorrow will IMHO set the stage - pun not intended. It's a pretty brutal stage and finishes up-hill. If Lance looks into the other GC contenders eyes and rides away again, well it's mostly over. (Just ask Jan.)

I've been following the TDF pretty regularly since Hinault was winning them. (It's too bad that, IIRC, Greg Lemond's bro-in-law mistook him for a duck when he was in form. Greg might have the standing of Indurain now if he hadn't.)

The TDF is such an incredibly complex race. Negotiations, trade-offs, who to let go and who to reel in. Even Lance's snub last year in going with a break he knew the peleton wouldn't allow - just to rub it in to one rider. (The break away group pled with Lance to leave. Lance's reply? Only if Filippo Simeoni goes with me back to the peleton. The break-away basically threw Simeoni out.)

As for Lance and his place among the elite. I do think modern victories at the TDF are more siginificant than of old. Thus a contiguous run of 6 is pretty incredible. I do think it places him at the top, if not the top. (I believe Indurain was the only contiguous 5 prior.)

I think few, realize the magnitude of interplay in the tour. Who is going to chace down a break, and are they going to share duties to do it. The TDF is at least a dozen races all in one. Winning one stage ever is an incredible accomlishment period. Winning the CG six times running is simply incredible. It certainly puts Lance in the top 1,2 or 3 riders ever, IMHO. It's all these things that make the TDF one of the most intersting races - there's a bit of meat for everyone.

As an aside....

The Tour is a contact sport. Just ask Robby head-banger, I'm-the-man McEwen. Talk about ego!

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Way OT, Lance or Team?

Dean in Burlinton

>You're right....I've been waiting for this stage for a long time. I don't think Lance has the accerlerations as in past years so I'm hoping we see a Tour like 2003 with lots of attacks. I want Lance to win (got money on it) but I'd like to see him suffer and earn it.

Also I think the same way about Greg. He is my favorite of all time. He could have won 6 tours for sure. He was so dominant in 86 beating Hinuat when he had one of his best tours. In 89,90 he didn't have the strength anymore but relied on technology which allowed him to win.

And Robbie....what an a-hole!!!!!!!

who won the spoon challange?

Ernie Miller

>I must have been sleeping that day cause I don't remember who won? and I never got a chisel out of the deal so it wasn't me?

I do I do!!!

Ernie Miller

>What a concept! Chair or box making compations. where the winner gets paid and people pay to come watch. A new sport yah that's the ticket. I'd whera a lLV hat and a veritas apron with patches from my other sponsers on it. I think there could be a 0dark thirty time spot on ESPN II or some where I know the speed channel. Kinda like the professional lumberjacks. I wanna play.

Re: Way OT, Lance or Team?

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Just to keep this on topic - eliteism...

Am I elitest when I get irritated about the jingoistic NASCAR types who are drooling in a nationalistic way over Lance, thinking the race is all amout the guy who rides the fastest?

And perhaps I am. But in this case, I don't really care.

As for Ego et al. There's likely no one in the tour who isn't an ego freak. Robbie's hard to take, but at least he's good - which makes it a bit easier on the way down. Arguably he's one of the best sprinters around and has been for quite a while and may continue to be. He gets lots of play time for the sponsor which is what matters to them. He's not the kind of guy I'd gravitate towards, but he is good.

We'll see how the rest of the tour goes. I do think Lance has the attitute to win that he didn't mostly have in 2003. If he'll remain lucky where it counts and stay out of the crashes and flatting etc remains to be seen.

He seems strong too. I actually think Sat's stage will be a positive - that he could easily defend against everyone else while all alone and still lose no time. It seemed as a coup for everyone else till now, but I think it will go the other way when and if he's strong over the next couple of days. If he's strong, it will be clear again that he is as strong as anyone else and plays a way better head game.

Cheers,

Greg

BagPipes and Blue Cheese

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Oh I do enjoy to hear the Bagpipes. Can't imagine anybody not liking listening to a good Bagpiper.

I also love Blue Cheese. Yup, the funkier it smells the better.

Todd O.

Who can hear the 'pipes as week speak. Just lovely.

Re: I do I do!!!

Dan Donaldson

>Nah, make it more like the chef competition. Give the competitors the same amount and types of wood and a time limit to make something out of it for the judges;-)

Re: I do I do!!!

Steve Kubien

>Well, it would draw more viewers than NHL hockey does south of the border (when they're playing, that is).

Re: Calling Adam Cherubini!

Dick Darin

>M & T contest anyone?

Ah, the pipes, there's little finer

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>I was once in an open ocean sea kayak race years ago (about 8 nautical miles). Towards the last mile or so my rear end was dragging low and I was about out of endurance trying to keep up with the fast boys in the rowing shells and the teams in the 10 man racing gigs. There was a piper on the pier at the finish line and he could be heard clearly at about 3/4 miles. The last bit was a total adreneline rush and I could feel the shivers up my spine from the pipes. While I wasn't first, my Scots heritage responded and I finished quite respectably.

Re: Really?

Dean J in MN

>Too early to give you more than a 'but' Adam. I'm on the fence, but I'm doing some hunting and digging as well as timing my own work. Not that I am anywhere nearly as fast as a period worker, in fact I should be much slower. Which lead to my shock when you quoted and I later read that statement in Mack's article. I knew from my experience I could do it quicker than that... However, I think there may be more to that statement than meets the eye. Or I've been sniffing too much hide glue. Could be.

-Dean

Hmmmm

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Angus Young and Angus Barclay...Coincidence?

I'm curious...

Scott, Who can hear the pipes at the Highland games held here every year.

One of the most moving moments...

Bob Hackett

>of my life was listening to "Amazing Grace" played on the pipes at a friend`s funeral.

MB

Re: Hmmmm

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Purely a concidence that the musician's parents (the Youngs) had the same good taste in names as my parents (the Barclays). Other than the name, there's nothing else shared.

cheers

Angus Barclay