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Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

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Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#1

Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

kenc

>When the latest FWW arrived on my doorstep I felt a sharp inrush of breath and a conscious shaking of the head as I contemplated those poor unskilled "nahms" who might use a benchtop mortising machine to cut mortices. After a little contemplation, I remember Tage Frid's comments that how you do something is irrelevant as long as the finished article is well made.

Hmmmmmmm.

Am I a tool snob? Elitist even?

Yesterday I hacked out a half dozen mortices in a piece of bedroom furniture I'm making, today I'll hack out the second six in the second piece. I guess I could've done all of them in no time on one of them thar' morticing machines.

As well as elitist, am I stupid?

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#2

Was that last question a rhetorical one?;-)

Eric Hedberg

>

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#3

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

Alan Bierbaum

>"Yesterday I hacked out a half dozen mortices in a piece of bedroom furniture I'm making, today I'll hack out the second six in the second piece. I guess I could've done all of them in no time on one of them thar' morticing machines.

As well as elitist, am I stupid? "

Maybe you just like to beat on the dull end of a sharp chisel?

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#4

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

mike recchione

>I don't know. I don't build stuff because I need the stuff. I build it because it's fun. I really enjoy chopping mortises by hand. If I didn't, I wouldn't do it.

I think of Lance Armstrong and the rest of the guys in the Tour de France right now. There are certainly easier ways to travel around France than schlepping a bicycle up those mountains. It would be much quicker and easier in a car, and they wouldn't get all sweaty and out of breath. But somehow, I think they'd be missing something important. I feel the same way about the mahtisin' machine.

So, to answer your questions: Yes, and well...

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#5

Yes.

Alan Hamilton

>

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#6

Lance Armstrong gets PAID doesn't he?

kenc

>How would Lance Armstrong get paid $15 Million for taking a bus around France?

Just curious.......

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#7

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>I work with both hand and powah tools, and when I'm killing 'trons I feel like a machine operator, and when using the handtools, such as a chisel and mallet I feel like a Craftsman. I get very little satisfaction when completing a task with the 'leckytrick users, but really get a rush when completing a task with the human powered tools. I gravitate to the handtools, but sometimes choose to destroy some 'trons instead.

Elitist? --Ooooooooooooo there's an argument waiting for some voices.

Stupid?-- Not unless your trying to make a living using only hand tools.

Todd O.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#8

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

William Duffield, on the Cohansey

>Elite, perhaps, but not elitist. Most of us will easily go back to using power tools when "necessity is the mother...". And, most of us will gladly help a power tool addict, one step at a time, to overcome his dependence, especially when we can show him a cheap, quick, easy hand tool trick that will save him time and frustration. After he's pleased with his results, we don't start preaching Hellfire and Damnation to all Forked Tailed Apprentices.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#9

Good point.

mike recchione

>I still don't want no stinking mahtisah in my shop. Say - if anyone wants to sponsor me to chop mortises, I'm open to discussion :-).

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#10

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

Sgian Dubh

>Ken, a typical British journeyman from the late 18th. century would probably have been allowed up to 30 minutes per mortice to chop them out. That means you would be allowed 6 hours or less to execute 12 mortices.

The cutting of the tenons would similarly be allowed about 30 minutes each.

Test fitting, gluing up and flushing off would have allowed one hour per joint, with a discount of 5% per additional joint over the first one up to a maximum of 30% discount.

So, allow 2 hrs per complete joint, i.e., 12 X 2 = 24. Then subtract the 30% discount this number of the same joint attracts which gives you 17 hours total time allowed to the nearest 1/2 hour to execute, test fit, assemble, and flush off.

If your hand skills aren't up to this sort of speed (as required by the old timers Masters) then you're not efficient enough. Nowadays it's questionable if anyone could make a living knocking out joints that slowly which explains why machine woodworking is so common. Slainte.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#11

Re: what does "elitist" mean?

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Looked it up on dictionary.com

"The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources."

I beleive that a person who learns to sharpen and use three simple tools, a hand saw, chisel, and plane, will be able to build things out of wood that are superior in quality when compared to those items built by people who do not have a good handle on their hand tools.

But I don't beleive that I deserve special treatment or am better than people who don't use hand tools. In my opinion, every person has equal value. So I guess some hand tool users are elitists, but certainly not all of them are.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#12

Re: Good point.

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Unfortunately, it seems, people seem a lot more willing to pay Lance (and a whole host of others) to ride than us to make furniture. I guess that's where it all meets the road. People care about sports a lot more than the quality of their furniture. (Sheesh, look at a lot of people's TV's. They've never spent that amount of money on any piece of fine furniture. Makes one weep huh?)

Jan Ulrich, BTW gets ~250,000 Euro a month. Not bad eh? (Just as bad an attitude as Lance, worse rider. He earns a lot less though. Forbes estimates his earnings as around 28 mil a year.)

On the same note though, people are more willing to pay to see Tiger Woods golf than Lance ride a bike.

Cheers,

Greg

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#13

No more so than a cello player

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>You can make music with a Casio keyboard. To make music with a bagpipe*, cello, bassoon, etc., is MUCH more work, but much more satisfying for those who happen to like the music these instruments can create.

There's an element of elitism in the handtool woodworking world, but I think there are lots of legit reasons to be humbly happy that we spend our time this way.

And, by the way, let's be clear: there's some elitism in doing woodwork at all, by hand or power tool. You don't find a lot of homeless people doing it.

*I'm sure those Centralians with snappy comebacks to that comment will refrain from actually expressing them in deference to my Scots heritage.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#14

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

kenc

>Very interesting! Thanks for that info.

Well, I got a grand total of twelve mortices done this weekend. Although total time actually marking and chopping was probably 5 hours at a guess.

I had to sharpen my 3/8 mortice chisel three times and sharpened and set a 10" tenon saw. I also sharpened both my 92 and 93 blades - although neither have been used on this job yet. In addition I put some nasty marks around two of the mortices trying to use a Stanley 71 to clean the bottoms. Not enough support - bad idea - actually a good idea just badly implememted.

I agree that doing it this way rather than simply being a machine operator is satisfying, but you're dead right - if I had to live off HAND TOOL ONLY furniture making I'd be pushing a K-mart trolley around the streets.

Ken

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#15

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

kenc

>I agree Todd.

My question was one of understanding peoples mindsets rather than a really serious one - although the stupid part might be serious......

I too prefer the feeling of satisfaction when making furniture by hand, but there's no doubting the efficiency and accuracy of machines.

I could've got 5 hours worth of work (the twelve mortices) done in what? 30 minutes on a machine?

Instead of spending thirty minutes sharpening and setting my tenon saw I could've bought one of those Japanese jobs with the unsharpenable replaceable blades - it would've been time efficient.

How much further would I have advanced on the construction with that additioonal 5 hours? At the end of the day the machine cut piece will look every bit as good as one made by tools. No one but me will know that sweat and tears went into those tables.

Food for thought........

Ken

Oh, and P.S. Yes, I am being the devil's advocate here.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#16

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

Robert R. Clough - Thorncraft

>The Elitists, generally speaking, Know They Are Better (educated, workmen, etc.) Than All Others. Whether this is true or not is another story.

Those who use hand tools and are condescending to those who do not use hand tools, are elitists.

Those who have advanced degrees and know they should be running everything because of those degrees are elitists. I have known several in that catagory.

The truly elite do not catagorize themselves that way. The truly elite work easily with others and are never condescending or patronising. Sam Maloof is one of the elite in woodworking as is Yeoung Chan. Both Kissinger and Brezinski (sp?) are among the elite in foreign affairs. None of these men set themselves up that way but are granted that title by the general or specific public.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#17

Bagpipes & woodwork

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>You can't just throw in a comment about bagpipes and expect to get nothing back! As it happens, one of my all-time favorites for shop listening is AC/DC's "Long Way To The Top" - complete with bagpipe solo.

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#18

Seriously

mike recchione

>If having the furniture is the goal, you've got to be out of your mind to use hand tools exclusively to make it. I guess you could make a cost argument, if your time isn't worth much, you're really strapped for cash, and you're not going to be making enough pieces to spread the cost of some machines over (even if you sold them after you were done). Or a space argument - like if your shop is in a closet or in the living room of a small apartment. Or you live in a place with no electricity.

But for the rest of us, it's the process. I almost don't care about the end product. I mean, I want it to come out nice and all, but I don't make things because I need them or because I want to impress somebody. It's like gardening or playing the recorder or trout fishing - you do it because you like doing it. Or else you don't do it.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#19

Calling Adam Cherubini!

mike recchione

>30 minutes per mortise? That seems like an awful lot of time. I'm no Cherubini, but I would think 10 minutes per mortise, tops. Tenons might take me a little longer, but again, 30 minutes seems too high. Are you sure about those numbers?

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#20

Positive comments are fine, Angus

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>Sorry. I'm a bit senstive, because LOML doesn't like the skirl of the pipes. I love her in spite of this deficiency. The poor thing just doesn't know what she's missing.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#21

Wait! Wait!

Skip in Falls Church

>You mean there are people that don't like bag pipes? Unbelievable!

Skip

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#22

Not everyone. . .

Tony Sade (Charleston, WV)

>I'm paraphrasing, and trusting a very old memory, but I believe Robert Burns was heard to have said something like, "Imagine if they smelled the way they sound, laddie!" ;>)

Tony

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#23

Steve Kubien

Yes but...

Steve Kubien

>If Lance would just ride around in circles so we could see more of him or keep up to him while he is on the course........

Feeling goofy and wondering if Lance might not be the most dominant athlete of all time (in his/her chosen sport)?

Steve Kubien

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#24

Re: Calling Adam Cherubini!

Sgian Dubh

>Mike, I get my figures from old hand work pricing schedules I picked up as a trainee back in the seventies. Oddly enough my pricing of contemporary work is based on the same method of pricing but updated to allow for faster machine woodworking.

The essential number to consider for this task is 2 hrs per M&T joint-- that's the old British standard hand work rate. For each multiple of the same joint knock off 5% up to a maximum discout of 30%. Therefore four mortice and tenons take 8 hours minus 20% = 6.5 hours to the nearest half hour.

This two hour number per joint allows the worker to cut squared parts to required length, set out and mark all the joints, cut the mortises, cut the tenons, test fit the joint, trim as required, apply glue, clamp up and final flushing off after the glue has set, all with hand tools only. Polish prepping procedures after assembly are priced separately, as too are initial timber squaring prior to setting out and marking the joints.

The truth is I can simply cut a mortise a lot quicker than half an hour, but if you allow the time required to do all the operations I described above, plus time required to sharpen tools, etc., I'd bet most hand workers would struggle to maintain that half hour per mortise for eight hours a day.

Similar, once in a while I like to keep the students on their toes by demonstrating the five minute dovetail. This is where I cut and assemble a drawer box set of rear through dovetails in five minutes. I usually use parts that are about 6" wide by about 3/8" thick and cut four or five tails. The only marks I have to start with are the shoulder lines. I don't carefully lay the tails or pins out and just whack at it all by eye. I get the students to time me and I can usually do it in six minutes or less, and with tight tolerances, but it certainly is frantic.

For a challenge once I entered a race to hand cut all the drawer box through dovetails at the back and the lap dovetails at the front in an hour. I managed it with five minutes to spare, and all the joints were pretty good, but it's a frenetic pace I couldn't maintain for an eight hour day.

Incidentally, the old standard charge to make a handcut dovetailed drawer complete is 8 hrs per drawer, which included things like cutting the parts to length, shooting the ends square on the shooting board, tapering the sides to fit into the opening about 7/8 of the way, bevelling the top edge and ends of the drawer front so it jams in the opening along with working the groove, marking and executing the joints, making and installing the slips complete including working the groove and with their tenon at the front, fitting the bottom, assembly, and shooting the drawer to fit into the opening. Slainte.

Re: Are handtool woodworkers elitist?

#25

Way OT, Lance or Team?

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>IMHO, Lance IS very good. However, luck and a totally devoted team play a huge part in his legacy.

There is no team that has put out the single minded effort of placing Lance (or their team leader) on the top of the GC year after year the way Postal/Discovery/etc has.

I even kind of like Lance, but in the TDF, team is probably at least 50% of the battle, and Lance and Byruneel have done an excellent job in keeping a cohesive team around LA.

This week should be interesting. Tomorrow is a rest day, and then the mountains start. I expect the next six or seven stages will likely show who the winner will likely be. It won't be over, but it will be someones race to lose.

Cheers,

Greg

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