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New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

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New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#1

New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Saturday May 21st was a bit of a first for Perth when local Galoots congregated for a sharpening workshop, and were able to see and use the new Veritas Honing Guide Mk II. There were a number of excellent presentations, both of technique and jigs, but center stage was definitely held by the Veritas guide which quickly received many positive comments.

The new guide (Mk II) not only overcomes all of the criticisms levied at Mk I (which was an excellent guide, nonetheless), but certainly now impresses as the best honing guide on the market at present.

Finish is in black anodized steel with brass fittings. As we have come to expect from all LV tools the quality was immaculate and everything worked perfectly out of the box. (A little confession � in true Aussie male style I did not read the instructions that came with the guide. The fact is this guide is so logical that it does not take more than intuition to work it out).

In use the Mk II felt solid and smooth, much more so than Mk I. Conversely, in spite of the wide wheel, it was still possible to add pressure to the blade ends to hone a fine radius (to feather shavings).

Several members of the workshop has the opportunity to try it out for themselves, and the unanimous decision by those present was that they would buy one as soon as it became available.

My thanks to Rob Lee and the staff at Lee Valley for the amazing efforts made to get this guide to me in time for the workshop, knowing that there had been late alterations to its machining, so delaying production. It arrived the night before, much to my great relief.

Details of the Mk II are in successive posts, below.

Picture #1 is yours truly demonstrating the new Guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#2

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Notable new features include:

- a wider track, ensuring greater stability

- ability to use wider blades (up to 3�or 75mm)

- a wide range of bevel angles, from 20� - 54�

- the ability to cater for both micro bevels (in 1� and 2� increments) as well as backbevels (10� - 20� range)


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Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#3

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Setting up the Mk II involves attaching the protractor. This slides on and is then positioned according to the width of the blade, which ensures that it is always centred. As seen in the picture below, there are separate scales for High and Standard blade settings, which covers all the angles found in both bevel down and bevel up planes (these are depicted by the red and yellow numbers, while the back bevels are written in green). All settings are clearly marked and accessed by a drilled stop. One demonstration involved a blade being sharpened for a cutting angle of 62� for a LV LA Smoother. This involved honing the blade in three stages, first adding a secondary microbevel of 20�, and a final microbevel of 5�.

One of the criticisms levied at Mk I had been the difficulty some experienced with setting the blade square within the guide. The last picture shows the underside of the protractor. Here is a depth stop for the blade plus a fence against which the blade is pressed before the hold down is tightened.

I will post further observations as I get to use the Guide over the next few weeks.

Regards from Perth

Derek


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Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#4

Unbiased review?

Lawrence Leong

>Derek,

I am sure you are a very knowledgeable woodworker; however, when I read a tool review written by a friend of the manufacturer who has rec'd the new tool in advance, is the info' really unbiased?

History repeats itself - just prior to the release of a Veritas product, out comes another favorable review from a friend. Hmmm...

Lawrence

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#5

Good review like all the others!!

john in KS

>Derek,

I have benefitted from all of your reviews and past projects and appreciate all the information. Thanks again for taking the time to post it here.

John

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#6

Re: Unbiased review?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Lawrence

Fair comment. All I can say is that I try and call it as I experience it. There is no doubt that I do admire the direction that LV are going, but my professional training does kick in to say "take a step back and do your best to be objective".

This honing guide is a truly excellent product. About a year ago I posted a modification to the Mk I, which added an internal fence to improve the ability to hold blades square. Soon after doing this, Rob Lee contacted me to describe the improvements that were planned for Mk II. I have been sitting on pictures of it for 6 months. What stands out is that LV have listened to every bit of criticism levelled at honing guides, theirs included, and sort to address these in the next version. And that is what they have done here. Indeed, what they have done is design an up-to-date honing guide, one that recognises the future demands of bevel up planes as well.

It is hard to disguise my enthusiasm for good design. Please don't mistake this for bias. I also will try not to.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#7

Re: Unbiased review?

Alice Frampton, UK

>No such thing as an unbiased review. Every reviewer brings their own parialities and enthusiasms to the task.

Reviewing is a two way thing. On the one hand we get to have the opinions of a tool from knowledgable (and not so knowledgable, like me) woodworkers to guide our buying decisions. On the other the manufacturer gets valuable feedback on their product. It's in neither group's interests for the reviewer to pull any punches.

For the record, I've also been sent a honing guide to review. Will I be biased? You betcha. Usually I hone freehand...

Cheers, Alf

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#8

Re: Unbiased review?

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Lawrence,

The sorts of concerns you express are the reason I don't write reviews of Lee Valley products anymore. It's not because I don't think I could provide a helpful discussion of the product, but rather that I just don't care to have such criticisms raised with respect to my motives, nor Rob's.

I think you may be failing to put into perspective several points.

First, one of the reasons why LV has put forward such good products is that they have combined a respect for woodworkers and their needs WITH an excellent in-house R&D staff WITH input from knowledgable woodworkers outside their company. As I've expressed before, getting good feedback on a tool prior to the final design decisions seems like a good practice that benefits not only the company, but earlier purchasers. Some companies just seek the feedback from a small group of high profile professional woodworkers, LV has the better approach, IMO, by seeking the input of knowledgable, dedicated, recreational woodworkers, who are, afterall, by far the largest group of folks purchasing the product.

Second, as others have mentioned, there is no such thing as a review devoid of all forms of bias. Anyone who has been properly trained as a researcher (and Derek happens to have that background), is aware of that and seeks to do what they can to minimize bias where that is possible, and reveal the possible source of bias where they can't (or don't choose to). Derek did just that, he was up front about his relationship with LV and the circumstances of him acquiring the honing guide. With that information in hand, the reader can make whatever allowances they feel are necessary.

Third, I would actually quible with Derek over the title of his comments. I personally consider them early impressions rather than a review, though as he expands his comments, it may well become more of a review. A good review, IMO, goes on at some length to provide the reader with as much objective description of the product as possible. In this day of digital photography, I feel that good written discription is often lacking, and not adequately replaced by just a photo. Regardless, the more the reviewer provides you with good objective description, the more information you have to develop your own analysis of the product, as well as ability to appraise the less objective discussion offered in the review.

Fourth, Of course Rob would like good press on his product. I don't think any of us are so naive that we don't think there is a financial pay off for Rob if some "opinion leaders" early on sing praises to his newly released product. But I think it is helpful to consider a couple of additional factors. One, the "opinion leaders" have often become just that because they have a long history of offering useful advice and observation. That is, they have already established some credibility with their peers. Might I add, this sort of credibility isn't always present or assumed when a review is presented by a magazine contributor (talk about bias, how about magazines offering reviews of products from their major advertisers--and, don't you think they often get access to products in advance). But I also want to discuss the flip side of this, on a pesonal level. Rob first contacted me many years ago after I had criticized his first block plane. We had long correspondence over that, and then his first power sharpening system. Both products I purchased like any other consumer. Since that time, I"ve been often involved in giving advice, feedback and criticism of LV products, both to LV and to my woodworking peers. After writing quite a few fairly well received reviews, I stopped for the reasons I discussed at the beginning. The number of projects I have been involved with since, have greatly increased, rather than decreased. Now if Rob were just choosing to "use" me, by thinking that providing some tools would gain him good reviews and public comments (and anyone who knows me, knows I publicly castigate some of his design decisions as well as praise them), then you'd think my involvement in the feedback cycle would have slowed down, but it hasn't.

I'd also like to point out, that providing such feedback and reviews takes up a lot of time. Many of the folks who are providing this information, and Derek is a good example, are upper level professionals whose time is worth a lot more than the cost of the tools. Most get (or got, for those now retired) lots of acknowlegement in their professional life, and don't need their ego stroked by seeing their name in print (or on someone else's screen). Almost everyone who I know much about, who writes online reviews, does so to be of service to their fellow woodworkers. Similarly, almost everyone I know who writes such reviews, have a long track record in their respective online communities and plan to remain involved in those communities in the future. Writing a review that is less than candid and truthful, just isn't a good strategy for long term success in an online community.

Ah, there is so much more that could be said here, but I'll end wit this. I personally think that that virtually all of us, LV, Rob individually, most folks who offer considered reports of products, etc, are planning to be around for a while. Credibility is something one earns over time, and something that can always be lost--sometimes far too easily. The principals in this discussion, are persons of established integrity, and nothing has occured that modifies my recognition of that.

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#9

ditto John's comments..,

Victor Parisian

>

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#10

Re: Unbiased review?

Lawrence Leong

>Lyn,

I thank you for putting so much time and thought into your reply.

I must admit, in my woodworking circle, it has become a bit of a joke amongst us wondering when 'reviews' from Derek (AUS), Alice (UK) and Lyn (US) would come out on the forums on new Veritas products. Never to question anyone's knowledge but just how neutral the review was.

Based on that, you have made a wise decision IMO. Thank you for your input.

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#11

Re: Unbiased review?

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I think, perhaps, that your message is unfair to Lee Valley and to Derek. I do not see from Derek's post where one should presume that he is "a friend" (meaning, I suppose, improperly biased) of Lee Valley, other than being a customer and one who has volunteered to contribute towards the development of a new product.

Since I do not have a non-disclosure agreement, I shall take the liberty of saying that I also have one of the new honing guides, and am evaluating it for the manufacturer. Why do I have one? I emailed a request to participate in the evaluation some time ago. I have never met Rob Lee, nor have I spoken with him. As Lyn M. points out up-thread, Lee Valley is getting input from a broad range of woodworkers. I fall into the amateur, long-time user of the Mk.I category.

So far, my impressions are 100% in agreement with Derek's comments. The issues of making auxilliary jigs for angle settings, ensuring perpendicularity, and insufficient clamping force seem to have been solved. There also are ergonomic improvements, making it more comfortable to use.

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#12

Re: Unbiased review?

kees

>Very pathatic; LV is not a Microsoftlike monopolist, so you're free to buy what you want.

kees

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#13

Re: Good review like all the others!!

kees

>agree.

Don't forget the review of derek's beltsander/grinder and he's not having a LVMKll grinder :-)

kees

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#14

Re: Unbiased review?

Rob Lee

>Hi Lawrence �

I�ve been unable to find any previous posts by you on this or any other forum so am having a bit of difficulty determining where your interests lie�certainly, it�s not difficult to find how much the three people you find to be good joke material have contributed to woodworking community.

We�ve been sending out products for testing for decades. For these people � we do not solicit reviews � nor do we expect them. Many of the people we ask to do testing for us have written reviews though � a demonstrated ability to analyze critically and communicate is what attracts us to many of those people in the first place.

Where we do sent product with an expectation of a review is to most of the major magazines. There, we can expect to reach an audience of several hundred thousand people�. Not the several hundred views a BB post might yield.

But I�ll tell you what Lawrence �

Send me your name and address � and I�ll send a guide out to you too�as long as you�ll promise to do a fair and unbalanced review�.it will be the first time we�ve solicited one.

My address is public � you can reach me at anytime.

As I�m typing from a Hotel in Vegas, I won�t be able to respond until Tuesday.

Cheers �

Rob Lee

President

Lee Valley Tools Ltd

Veritas Tools Inc.

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#15

Oops...

Rob Lee

>...of course, I meant to type "balanced review"...

Cheers -

Rob

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#16

Re: Unbiased review?

Dean in Burlington

>Rob,

You want an unbiased review.....send one to me.

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#17

Paul Kramer

Bias, etc.

Paul Kramer

>All,

Since I started reading (lurking and occasionally contributing to) this forum, I have gained from the profound wisdom of many. I have avoided some mistakes and I have made some wonderful acquisitions. I must say that the contributions of Lyn, Derek, etc. have been very helpful. I especially enjoyed Lyn's post above. I have been following the multiple threads on the topics of sharpening, including media, machines, etc. I have been looking forward to the release of the MkII anxiously. I have also been very impressed with LV's energetic pursuit of ideas and feed-back. It has resulted in the production of some lovely tools. I am especially fond of their shoulder planes, LA jack and the set up blocks. There's a lot of very thoughtful design and engineering in those tools and it shows.

I want all of the Alf's, Dereks, Lyns out there to know that they are respected and valued.

Lawrence, what is rendered here are opinions. They require the reader to be a critical thinker; to balance all of the factors that go into the formation of the opinion. The opinions I have read from the above named and many others are well reasoned and explained. It is mostly clear to me why the writer came to the opinion they expressed. In absorbing this information, I have had a remarkably rewarding tool buying experience.

Paul

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#18

Re: Unbiased review?

tonyr

>I have never met or spoken with Lawrence or any of you, although as a newly minted tool junkie, i have read all the reviews that you have written with great attention and appreciation and encourage you all to continue this wonderfull community service. That said, Lawrence DOES raise a valid point that any tool review should fully and clearly disclose affiliation with the company under review and specify the ultimate disposition of the tool. I am not certain that Derek did this (?), perhaps so, but it is certainly a good practice and to this extent, Lawrence *may* have a point. That said -- THE REST OF THIS EMAIL IS JUST MY OPINION -- I have spent over $2,000 in the past month purchasing LV and LN products and I have found that both companies provide a level of customer satisfaction in terms of both product and service that I have never experienced from any other company, any industry, period. Rob has personally responded to questions I have raised on this forum and others and Thomas LN included two videos gratis in my order of several planes bc we had had a nice 5 minute conversation at a show and he actually remembered my name! So while I do feel the reviewers need to be careful re: transparancy, to LV (and LN for that matter), please do NOT do ANYTHING differently! thanks, tony. ps: following my own imperative, I have ordered the new honing guide (in fact I was number 7 to do so according to customer service) and anxiously await its arrival.

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#19

Re: Unbiased review?

Roger in Texas

>You Know, I've been following this thread most of the day, and I would like to offer my opinion. I'm new to the hand tool portion of woodworking and have been lurking on several forums for handtool users for about 6 or 8 months now. I think that any reasonably intelligent person can follow a forum for awhile and tell who is speaking from experience and who is not. That said, I have read posts from Derek on several different forums and have formed the opinion that he "Has a clue" about what he writes. In this country, there is a saying: Let the buyer beware. Any reviews that I read only help me to make a decision to further investigate the product in question or not. If it gets glowing reviews, and I think it's in my price range and I have a need for it I will do so. I may be naive, but I find it hard to believe that just because someone gives a good review, it automatically means that it was "bought" in some way. Someone earlier today said that to do so would harm that persons reputation, which to me is far more important than a few dollars. My .02 worth.

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#20

Just a reminder...

Ted Owen, Moderator

>please remember to post your email address, everyone. While no guarantee, this rule affords some bit of comfort as to the authenticity of our posters. The rule applies throughout all of WoodCentral.

Thanks, Ted

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#21

Well, Lyn ...

Clay C in Miami

>If I have to choose between your input in the design process versus your reviews after, I'll take the input - that's an easy choice.

But, I won't pretend to like having to make the choice.

Thanks as always,

Clay

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#22

Re: Unbiased review?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>........"I would actually quible with Derek over the title of his comments. I personally consider them early impressions rather than a review, though as he expands his comments, it may well become more of a review.".......

Lyn

You are absolutely right about the title. It really should have read " First impressions". It was/is my intention, however, to follow up these initial observations as experience with the guide increases. My motivation to post what I had was partly that the information was still fresh in my mind having just completed the sharpening workshop, and partly that so many forum members, both here and elsewhere, had ben aggitating for some news.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#23

And now, back to our regularly scheduled program

John Meikrantz

>Folks,

This doesn't happen often in this neighborhood, but occasionally a troll will post to stir up some "fun". Usually best ignored, but in some cases, as is the troll's intent, emotional issues are touched upon, and people feel they need to respond. This becomes a big waste of time and bandwidth.

Take it with a grain of salt when someone posts an inflammatory message, and they have never been seen on this or any other woodworking or tool discussion list, and as a moderator has pointed out, they won't even use an email address.

The forum here is just a bunch of "friends" chatting. It is not a publication of tool reviews. You learn to discern who knows what they are talking about by getting to know the people that "hang out" here.

Derek's post wasn't really a tool review, it was talking about how LV came through with an early delivery of a new tool in time for a sharpening session that he was involved with. With all of the buzz about LV's new honing guide, I am sure that many people want to see some initial impressions from people that they respect (or don't respect). I also am a tester of the new honing guide, because I asked LV if I could be. I hope to provide them feedback, so they can continue to incorporate new features in their products based on customer feedback. I will probably also post some impressions and photos here, and I'm sure they will be positive, because I really like the new design.

Now circling back to my original point, don't feed the trolls. I would much rather have seen a more in depth discussion of the honing guide, than people rushing to defend people of impeccable integrity against an anonymous attack by a troll.

John (wasting more bandwidth!)

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#24

Question for Derek & Rob

Patrick Gibbons, Houston, TX

>I have gotten to be fairly good at not using a guide at all. I use the old LV guide to establish a new bevel when it is really out of angle and when tuning up an old chisel, plane blade,etc. I have found it somewhat difficult to get the old guide to set up easily. I believe most who have the guide know the problem. My question concerns the improved features of the new quide vis-a-vis the increased cost and an evaluation of the value of the new guide. My other concern of all guides is my perception that the brass wheel the guide moves on picks up grits from sharpening media and contaminates subsequent sharpening stones. Because of this I have confined my use of a guide to wet/dry paper while establishing a new bevel. Please comment.

Re: New Veritas Honing Guide Mk II � Review

#25

Response (long)

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Patrick

You asked:

(1) "I have found it somewhat difficult to get the old guide to set up easily. I believe most who have the guide know the problem".....

I assume that you are referring to the difficulty some (myself included) experienced with the Mk I in getting, and then keeping, the blade straight in the Guide. I resorted to two stratgies in the past - building a fence into my Mk I and tightening the hold down with vicegrips, or using a jig to set the blade square (and tightening the hold down with vicegrips). I recall Rob's advice in this regard. He said that he did not tighten the hold down much and that then the blade would remain square on its own (the idea being that the guide is just an extension of your hand, as if you were honing freehand). Someone else reported the same. But this did not work for me, and I found I was starting to prefer the Eclipse guide since it is a side clamping guide and its strength of lies with keeping the blade square (as long as it is constructed accurately - not all were).

Some time back (the articles are in the records somewhere), I posted a jig I designed to set up honing angles on the Mk I and the Eclipse as quickly and as securely as possible. Others responded with similar ideas. The point is that even the Eclipse is fiddly to set up - it takes two (sometimes three) hands to hold the blade in the guide, extend it the correct distance over, and hold the jig securely so that the measurements are accurate (and all at the same time!).

What the Mk II does is deal with all these issues in one fell swoop. The protractor (or "registration jig") attaches to the body of the Guide, the depth stop is adjusted and fixed in place with a knob, and the fence is integral. All this can be done with two hands, perhaps one with some practice. Yes, the Mk II is a lot easier to set up.

(2) A tightening difficulty (above) may well have been due to the fact that the MK I hold down consists of a single central pressure point. The Mk II, on the other hand, is tightened by knobs situated at each side, thus producing double the downforce.

I do have a question about this set up, which I shall examine over the next few weeks. That is, in my experience (see my belt sander grinder article), this type of hold down has the potential to tilt the blade slightly, which will cause it to be honed at a skew. It is vital that the knobs are tightened evenly to prevent this occuring. I will let you know.

(3) ..."My other concern of all guides is my perception that the brass wheel the guide moves on picks up grits from sharpening media and contaminates subsequent sharpening stones" ...

None of the guides I have used over the years have transfered grit and contaminated stones. It should be good practice, anyway, to wipe down the wheels between waterstones. There is no need to fear this and resort to SS.

On the other hand, there is a related issue which I will mention. I use King waterstones (800, 1200, 8000) and these wear faster than most others in the market. My choice is restricted in Australia, so I cannot comment how other waterstones will behave (whether this will be as much an issue..). The narrower the guide's wheel, the greater the pressure placed on the surface, and the greater the wear than takes place. I experience more wear using an Eclipse than the Mk I. Now the Mk II's roller is significantly wider, and I expect this to reduce wear on the waterstones even more. It is too early to know by how much (and even then I would have to do side-by-side comparisons, and I am not going to spend my time doing that!).

I hope that this answers your questions.

Regards from Perth

Derek

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