Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Dean J in MN

>Must be the same people that gave us the idea you need X-cut saws to crosscut. :-)

I think there is something missing with the entire saw filing thing. I don't know what it is we may have lost along the way, but I have a feeling we dropped a bit of info on the shop floor and it was swept up with the shavings...

Dean -- Who Xcuts with rip filed saws...

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>As far as I know Ken, real dovetail saws have always been filed rip. In fact, historical evidence suggests that all saws were filed rip until some time in the late 1700s or early 1800s. Filing crosscut is a relatively new concept given that saws go back a coupla thousand years. Filing rip is easier and quicker and in some cases doesn't require either any set to the teeth or at least minimal set.

For doevtailing a rip saw is indeed faster, particularly in harder woods. It also clears the sawdust easier due to the tooth shape and is less likely to clog at a given number of tpi.

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Dennis McDonaugh

>So Ken, go buy a $135 crosscut LN saw

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!! *LINK*

Frank D. in Montreal

>Here's the link:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=smCC

It's the dovetail saw filed crosscut.


LN crosscut dovetail saw

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I can't say as I have ever seen any government regulations limiting stock to 1/2" thick if it is to be dovetailed. Another facet of woodworking is that some people are pretty sensitive and in touch with their tools, and others simply don't care. In my opnion, it is slightly easier to control a rip saw when you are making a rip cut than it is to control a crosscut saw in a rip cut. This is from my own experience, and not just something I read in a book. I can easily remember the frustrations of using a rusty old dull saw and not even knowing the difference whether it was rip or crosscut and trying to cut a dovetail. I wouldn't recommend that experience to anyone. You can start in the dark ages and re-invent the process as you go, or you can read a bit on the subject, try it out, and learn from other people's experience.

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Perhaps we are all gulity of owning to many good tools. I personally own a few hammers and maybe, could be by with only one. Probably don't need more than 3 planes. I have seen great works carved with only a few chisels. Truth be told I enjoy both saw's. The crosscut saw does not cut as cleanly in hardwoods IMO.

Speed, yes; but mostly tracking

Christopher Schwarz

>I used x-cut saws for years cutting dovetails (1993 to 1999). They work fine. But when I switched to rip, I found that they track better and are indeed faster. But mostly that they track better.

I think this is true whether your saw is old or new, Japanese or Western. Or maybe I've been hypnotized (again).

cms

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Ernie Miller Topeka

>I have two pretty much identical D4's one rip one X cut and the rip does make a better cut on need to pair or clean up the edges befor assimbling. try one saw on ione side of the DT and the other on the other side and look at the differance.

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Michael R

>I sharpen my own saws, so I can have them any way I want. I concur with the others who say that a rip tooth works better for DT's. You just have to try them side by side to see the difference.

I have several back saws, and I don't think I paid more than $35 for any of them. The people who have compared them with the expensive saws find that my hand sharpened sawa aren't as pretty, but they work just as well or better.

Michael R

A question and opinion

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Is there a difference between a small backsaw and a dovetail saw...blade thickness, tpi, handle orientation?

A quick trip to Pete Taran's website would suggest that the "dovetail" saw is a special class of backsaw which generally refers to a saw 8 to 10 inches with rip teeth in pitches from 14 to 17 tpi. The dovetail saw would also have a very narrow blade for better control and stiffness.

Although not specifically mentioned, it does appear that a "dovetail" saw handle is more vertical than a backsaw handle.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is...if you found a small backsaw with a blade thickness of..oh...say 0.20 to 0.30 and a handle oriented more horizontal than vertical to the blade, but vertical to the blade nonetheless, and filed crosscut....you can still cut dovetails with it, but you wouldn't necessarily call it a "dovetail saw", YMMV.

Just my dos centavos

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Hi Ernie,

I don't think that Disston ever really called the No. 4 backsaw a dovetail saw. They do however, call the No. 68, 70 & 71 backsaws "dovetail saws". The 68, 70 & 71 have a thinner blade at 0.018

Re: A question and opinion

L. Hanson

>Erv Schaffer's book, "Hand-Saw Makers of North America" - often considered the bible of american hand sawmakers - lists the following criteria as what the different types of back saws are:

Type.......Length...Blade Thickness...TPI

Tenon------16"-20"-----.032"----------10

Sash-------14"-16"-----.028"----------11

Carcass----10"-14"-----.025"----------12

Dovetail---6"-10"-----.022"----------14-18

I personally grew up not knowing there were back saws with anything but crosscut teeth... I still think if I was to have only one, it would be a crosscut - but they are cheap enough these days, there's no reason not to have several.

With a high number of teeth per inch, combined with today's uber-thin blades, I don't think it matters much which way they are filed. I know it's easier to sharpen rip...

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com

Oooops...

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>..."thickness of..oh...say 0.20 to 0.30"

I meant thousandths - 0.020 to 0.030

Thanks

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Thanks, I will definitely add this title to the bookshelf...soon as I can find a copy;-(

Re: Thanks

L. Hanson

>Vintage Saws has "a good supply" of them in stock according to their web site.

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com

Erv's books

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native in FL. Exile :~(

>Does anybody have these books and can vouch for the validity of the wealth of information, or are they really not that great. The saw-set one appeals to me more than the saw makers one does, but would consider them both IF they are actually worth having, and worth the $$$.

Todd O.

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Kevin French, Antrim NH

>I bought the set of 4 Paragon saws from GW a while back and started using their 8", 18tpi DT saw. After a little more reading I took their 12". 14tpi Tenon saw to my sharpener and told him I wanted it resharpened for rip with mininal set. It's like night and day. The DT saw sits in the till now.

I now bounce between the tenon and a Japanese DT saw.

Re: Oooops...

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>You find the 0.20-0.30 sawblades only on the Lee Valley "Extra-Rigid One-Step Fingerjoint Saw" - right, Rob? When can we expect to get this saw filed rip, not just its current cross-cut configuration?

Bill...just funnin'

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

paul womack

>After a little more reading I took their 12". 14tpi Tenon saw to my sharpener and told him I wanted it resharpened for rip with mininal set. It's like night and day. The DT saw sits in the till now.

That's a waste; why not get it resharpened as well?

While I'm here, I'll just plug the concept of learning to sharpen your own saws. Given that traditional saws need regular touch up sharpening, it's a neccessary skill.

And given that much of the merit (or lack thereof) of a saw comes from the sharpening, having the skill yourself means you can buy good old saws (they go for NOTHING at yard sales etc) and make 'em cut really well.

I've used LN saws at shows, and my saws (varied brands; Tyzack, Spear & Jackson, Disston amongst others), aren't as cosmetically appealing, but they cut about as well.

BugBear

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Yes, but a Lie-Nielsen that has been hand-sharpened by a skilled hand cuts even better, according to tests done by some fellow (?CRS) back on the Pond.

BTW, Kevin, I got the same set of saws from Garrett-Wade, and packed them all up and sent them to Tom Law for sharpening and re-toothing. It made quite a difference, but the handles are still miserable.

(Note for ToDo List: Re-shape ugly Paragon handles)

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>I agree about Tyzak saws. My 14" 100+ year old brass backed,split nut Tyzak saw is the most comfortable saw handle I have.JR

Re: Rip dovetail saws? Phhhhhtttttt!!!

Mike McDaniel

>I was lucky to have Tom Law teach me to file.(He lives close by) Something that has not yet been mentioned is, that a slightly pitted blade filed Rip, will still cut well. The same thing can not be said about a saw filed CC.

On blade thickness too......

ken c

>Hey Lief!

Another thing that I question about Dovetail saws (yes I am the questioning kind of guy) is the desire for super thin blades. I use a Disston D4 (among many others!) which is not specifically a DT saw and has quite a thick blade. I can't see how it matters how thick the blade is if you're splitting a line and chopping out the waste - a split line is a split line no matter how "Fat" the waste portion is cut.

Ken

Re: On blade thickness too......

L. Hanson

>I think there's reason for both thick and thin... For me, if I could have only one saw, I would rather have a thicker blade, and be filed crosscut, as that - to me - is a more universally usable tool.

I think you can do a lot of work with a single D4 Disston - for years my only back saw was a "Warranted Superior" crosscut saw. I did everything with it - tenons, shoulder cuts, dovetails. It's still one of my favorite saws, and I still use it probably more than any other back saw I have, and I seem to have amassed quite a few lately (eek!). But I'm used to that one saw - I hate to even sharpen it, because then I'd have to learn it's little idiosyncrasies all over again. Weird, huh?

Having said that, dovetail saws made specifically for the task have usually been thinner bladed than regular back saws. It makes some sense that a thinner blade works better for finer teeth... I know it can be quite difficult to put a set on the teeth of a 17 ppi saw when the saw is .040" thick or so when you compare it to doing the same on a blade of half that thickness.

For short cuts, esp. like those in a half-blind dovetail, the thinner blade shines - at least for me - I find it a little easier to follow the line with them. But for general crosscutting? Forget it. But saws are cheap, and it's kind of nice to mix it up a bit anyway - this little 6" saw I made recently has a .015" thick blade, and is kind of fun to use:

But it's almost useless for just about anything but doing dovetails. Of course - it was specifically made for that task alone, so it is a bit better at it than my D4 is. I'm not ridding myself of either... The thicker blades are also easier to file crosscut, and excel at making those cuts - as well as tenons. As always, though - YMMV.

Leif

NorseWoodsmith.com