Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Prepare the next volley!

Bob Hackett

>Hey,the Emmerts were worth a shot.You never know till you ask.

These posts are sort of fun aren`t they?It`s kind of like a seige.First you send folks out(the opening post)and the opposing force tries to kill them.Then after they kill as many as they can and after they`re forgotten about(your past posts)they get loaded into cataputs and thrown back over the wall at you to cause more trouble after you thought they were gone.Then you have to minimize the damage,isolate the diseased areas and prepare another attack.I can see why our ancestors were so taken by it.It does take up alot of your time though.

Gotta go see to those catapults and battering rams.Keep those pots of oil boiling,I haven`t forgot about ya.

Smooches,

Mainely,Bob

Huh ? ?

Todd Hughes

>

Re: I doubt it.....

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>The mush thing...small game have always been subject to this. Spurious political comment about gun control notwithstanding.JR

Re: I doubt it.....

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Thanks for keeping the board honest, Joe; but actually, if you read what I wrote, there was no political comment by me. It's a simple fact, the assault weapon ban has been allowed to expire. I believe it was John who was complaining about how we'll soon no longer have private firearms ownership rights/privileges.

Pam

Re: More Junk Slated for the Paint Booth

John Meikrantz

>Bob,

Thanks for the info and follow up. I have a great deal of respect for your methods of work and your input to the online community in general. I find that more often than not I am in agreement with your assessments and techniques. I appreciate the no BS fact supported approach to tool usage, design, and maintenance.

Who'd have thought that such a simple question could lead to mentioning meatloaf recipes, assault weapons, and laughter from Pam!

John

Two Phosphated Assault Weapons....

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>...ready for the paint booth.

Circa 1899 assault weapons made up on commission for the Cowboy Action crowd:

U 2 girls done pillowfighting?

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>

So, which is it?

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>I'll admit to ignorance (ok, and a fair amount of apathy, too) here - you first said the assault weapons ban was repealed, and then you said it was allowed to expire. I'm, um, confused...

Scott, happy to have the computer back to computating again

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Hi Bob,

how about some gaff from us non uptown tool users. While I do appreciate you shedding light on the use of acids and wire wheels, merely slamming collectors is not really explaining the true issue of refinishing tools.

Everyone reading here should know that the use and or promotion of acids and wire wheels will render your tools undesireable to both users and collectors alike. Personally, I only buy tools that look like the've never been messed with, but to each his own. nuf said

regards

Jonathan

Nope.......

Dennis

>As the late Bob Nelsen said........"inhanced".........and i for one wonder how many can really know what has not been "messed with"

Now having said that,it doesn't matter what somebody does with a tool once they own it. From what i have seen over the years unless it is mint in the box and never used then the collector's could care less.

Dennis, who is a user of tools, not a collector and the ones i have, i use and iam just the current owner.

remove nospam for email

Yes, but what about the Toilet Paper Catapault!

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>

Re: So, which is it?

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>It had a birth defect, and was allowed to expire.

Re: Two Phosphated Assault Weapons....

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>Aw come on Bob, those can't be assult weapons. Where's the bayonet stud like on the old 1896 Winchesters? My point man used to use one of those.

Re: Two Phosphated Assault Weapons....

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Marine or Army Infantry?

I was a Grunt, too, once upon a time.

Those are Marlin Model 42's....a lesser known Hepburn patent to compete with your M97's. Good old gun, once Hepburn got the bugs worked out. Softer steel than the 97, tho, and they get loose quicker with hard use. But unlike 97's, they go for a song today when you can find one.

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>Jon,

You wrote, "...the use and or promotion of acids and wire wheels will render your tools undesireable to ... users... "

Why do you believe this to be so?

Re: hehe.......

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>If I can't tell - and I got me a nicely restored tool on the cheap then wooooohoooooo. Gobs of rich patina, full original arn, mostly japanned, tote and knob ain't worn or broke, and no toolbox marks - and it's going in the bag.

If I can tell it's been messed with, then I ain't going near it..."inhanced" or not. I'll leave all those shiny overpolished mixed parts, refinished, zapped, wire wheeled planes on the table fur ya. have at em' they're all yours.

Regards

Jonathan

Re: Two Phosphated Assault Weapons....

Bob Hackett

>Did time in the Delta?Those scatterguns were just the ticket in the tall grass.

MB

Re: U 2 girls done pillowfighting?

Bob Hackett

>Alright now everybody.GROUP HUG!!!

Belly up,the phosphate`s on the house boys(You too Pam).Break out the meatloaf and the assault weapons,I feel a celebration comin` on.

Hell of a time for the meds to kick in!

Mainely,Bob

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser? *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Hi Don,

You ask specifically what I meant from a users perspective. Well, I look for tools that are either in good to good + condition or will clean to good to good + if not to excellent. I prefer finding a tool that someone else hasn't messed with for a few reasons.

I don't like shiny or polished tools, unless they are new. Also, the preservation and history of the tool is important to me.

It's harder to tell if a tool has been thoughtfully used and not abused if it's all tricked up. For instance, I can't tell if somebody took a belt sanda to the sole, removed pitting, but left the sole out of true requiring more time for me to fettle. Also, he would have removed much prescious metal, read mass. The working parts may be worn even if the plane looks mint. The lateral adjuster can be wiggly or it can take many turns of the yoke to engage the blade. I could go on, but I'll stop here.

The things I look to avoid when selecting a plane are signs of abuse or alot of wear. I look for Length of the blade, finish remaining on the tote, condition of the mouth, original parts, condition of the sole (a plane that hasn't been used for a long time will have patina on the sole). Patina or surface rust are good (no pitting), no pitting on the back of the blade. Tool box marks, chipped totes, chipped out japanning can be ok sometimes. Grease seems to preserve planes and makes them look like heck cuz of all the dirt it attracts, but when cleaned, full patina may be present.

I have an old type 9 or 10 #3 that had the blade worn down to the slot, the sole lapped to nothing, and the working parts are worn. The user must have been a craftsman and took good care of this plane and it works great. This was sort of lucky as I got it cheap on ebay cuz it was greasy and dirty.

I don't think I really answered your question, but I tried. One last point might be of guys overcleaning planes for higher resale value. You might pay more for one of these thinking an excellent condition plane might go right to work, but the cleaning had nothing to do with fettling and it might take more time to undo what the seller did to make it look new.

regards

Jonathan


plane

ROTFL:-)...

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>............(rolling on the floor laughing)

just a minor correction...

John Longwitz-Doraville, GA

>...doubt if anyone reading my post for content could come up with any hint of "complaining"...was just stating the inevitable conclusion if the erosion of gun owner's rights continues with the progression it has over my span of years. Don't even own one as my .280 Rem is twice as powerful and either of my 12 Gauges will "mush" squirrels with much more economy. So would a Bailey #7 for that matter.

Excellent post

Bob Hackett

>Well thought out and very valid points.You made a very good case for why you feel the way you do.The pic of the plane illustrating your points was a nice touch too.There`s much here that a WWer can use and profit from,and I`m not talking $ profit.

Maybe the thing I most objected to about Todd`s post was the out of hand condemnation of Bob`s attempts to preserve his tools using a proven method of rustproofing that added a personal touch to his tools.

I live on the opposite coast from Bob and if you don`t do something beyond simple oil or wax your tools rust,quickly.If you don`t catch it,it progresses to pitting and siezing of parts in short order.

I have been known to blast badly rusted tools and either spray can them or just scrape the loose rust and use a product from Loctite called Extend.It looks like stove black but stops the rust.Ugly,some would say yes but it makes the tool functional and rustproof.

I don`t pretend to speak for Bob(he does that very well himself)but there`s a big difference between what both he and I do and the heavy handed ways of overcleaners and unscrupulous polishers looking to turn a quick buck by passing a worn out piece of junk off to folks who don`t know better all in the name of profit.I`m sure knowledgable folks like yourself can see that.

While phosphate and cold blueing may not be preserving history or patina it does something very important,it preserves the tool itself in a salt air environment.The chances of that tool being around in operational condition for the next generation is greatly improved.While you may not agree with the technique,I`m sure we can all agree that the results and the intention behind it are both a good thing.

This was the type of discussion I had hoped for.You said some things that opened my eyes and caused me to think.I`ve enjoyed this far more than the finger pointing and,I`m sorry Bill,"Baloney" type of closed minded posts I`ve seen and taken an active part in lately.Thanks John for helping me to stop being so closed minded and causing me to look at things in a different light.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Ayup.

No problem here with what you do with your tools, and am truly puzzled why so many have such vitriolic heartburn with what I do with mine.

In each and every article I write I either stress or demonstrate a few points in some detail:

1) These are user, not collector tools.

2) Boatbuilding, sawyering and tree farming are the basic trades, and the tools live in open tents, and unheated sheds.

3) We get 60+ inches of rain...often sideways rain...here on Hood Canal between October and June. The trees love it, but your "patina" would soon render the tool inoperative, let alone pitted.

Many of my tools have been in my family for as long as four generations, and many of the others I made myself. I have three craftsman sons...and will soon enuf likely have a passel of crafts-person grandchildren...

...the chances of any of my tools ever appearing on the used tool market are about zero.

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Todd Hughes

>I do have to say those tools do look really nice and clean for tools that are stored out in the weather in a tent.... hanging on a peg board.Hard to imagine they would quickly become rusted hulks if you hadn't cold blued them or that they have not been well taken care of but I will have to take your word for it...Personaly I don't think anybody told you what you should do to your tools. I know i certainly didn't. A person asked a question about CLEANING tools with acid which I responded to that in my experance it was a poor way to do it. I still think this. Will point out the question was not about cold blueing tools or shotguns for protection from the rain while you stored them in a tent[I think keeping them in a good tool box would do wonders to protect them as oposed to displaying them out in the open on a peg bord but hey thats just me and my opinon] but again was how to clean the rust off of tools.My original post was in answear to this question and nothing more....Your tools look great and if you are happy with them I wouldn't want YOU to do anything differently.I am not so sure that the average guy that gets some acid to clean his tools will be as happy but I don't know I can only speak from my experance seeing many tools cleaned and ruined this way. My responce had nothing to do with what you should do but what I thought and what I would do and would recomend when it comes to cleaning tools with acid. Am sorry if you somehow thought otherwise.......Todd

Re: Two Phosphated Assault Weapons....

Dave Anderson Chester,NH

>I was a Marine grunt back "once upon a time" in the old Southeast Asian War Games. B Co. 1/7 1st MARDIV