Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>Several brands and mixes usually used full strength from the bottle.

But follow the instructions the manufacturer provided.

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>One more point, as I take some gaff from the tool collectors for recommending this.

It can be done...and done well...if we are talking real user tools and not uptown collector stuff. 9+ decades of US Armories and Army gunsmiths aren't likely wrong. Been used on weapons since 1917.

The acid leaves a "parkerizing" residue in the pits that won't easily rust again like electrolyis....just the ticket for a wet climate and unheated shop/yard like mine. It also preserves the existing Japanning by killing the rusting that goes on at the edges of those chips.

If your tools live in a nicer, tool-collector's environment, then simply use electrolysis or something else.

Simply buff the metal to a shine removing the grey phosphate surface that forms.

If you are concerned about any etching, then use fine wet-or-dry paper ILO the soft wire wheel and a lighter hand with the buffing wheel.

All these steel/iron surfaces were treated with phosphoric acid as a first step after removing loose crud...followed by the soft wire wheel, buffing, and a phosphate blue applies so dense it puddles water:

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Todd Hughes

>I think this stuff, often in the form of Navy Jelly has been responsiable for more ruined tools then about any other method of cleaning. This acid and other acids like vineger turns the steel a dull dead grey look which maybe as Bob says can be removed by wire wheels etc. but I have seen it leave the steel so bad that it can't be removed. But why use somthing that leaves a finish that is harder ,[and looks worse] to remove then the rust you are trying to clean in the first place? Folks we are talking here about putting an ACID on your steel tools.Even Slowhead me knows what acid does to steel.....Maybe this stuff has a place in cleaning rust off somthing that will be painted like hardware but a tool! Don't do it!.....Todd

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>I don't disagree with Todd about Naval Jelly....or if you don't follow the instructions with your HD's "Jasco Metal Primer/Prep" or other commercial solution.

Many believe that if a pound is good, a ton must be better....and leaving your steel soak in acid beyond the stated instructions is a recipe for disaster.

But for tools used and sometimes stored outdoors....I haven't found a better system yet, and you can clearly see the quality of my user finishes in the pics, some of them several decades old.

Phosphoric acid ok

bill tindall

>I won't enter the argument about how it looks or what is better but I will comment on phosphoric acid and iron. Todd you are correct that almost any acid will promote further rusting of iron, except phosphoric acid. Phosphoric acid makes an iron phosphate salt that protects the metal against further rusting. This salt is black and no doubt resutls in the grey to black look this treatment imparts. So, from an iron perspective there is nothing harmful about this treatment if the resulting looks is acceptable. In terms of future rusting this treatment is beneficial.

As a collector, if you advise against this treatment then others would be advised to avoid it if they want to sell what they cleaned. Personally I kind of like the look, but then I march to a different tune than collectors.

I just slathered a gallon of the stuff on a starting- to- rust '76 chevy step side truck bed(made into trailer). I didn't have a tank big enough for electorlysis and I was too cheap to pay for sand blasting. I'm optimistic that a coate of chromate primer and some tractor paint and I'll be good for another few years.

Re: Phosphoric acid ok

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>There's an answer below for you, Bill, on other baloney I've posted, if you haven't seen it.

I may disagree with y'all, as my basic trade and basic approach are often quite different...

...but I hope to never label anyone's valid opinion as "baloney."

Well....

Todd Hughes

>I did say that maybe it had a place to clean rust off somthing that was going to be painted. I am sure it will be fine to use on your old rusty trailer which will look fine after you paint it....I sort of don't want to have to paint any of my tools so think I will continue to avoid it......Todd

More Junk Slated for the Paint Booth

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>

...and one of the "before" pics:

All this from a man who...

Bob Hackett

>in previous posts admitted to storing handsaws in the back of his open truck,in the rain.Not to mention Emmerts in a pile on a dirt floor.The horror,the horror.

Those of us who used to be in a combat arms branch of the military will always have a soft spot in our hearts for a parkerized finish.The rest of the world never seems to understand,somehow that`s OK with us.

I wonder why it doesn`t work the other way `round?

Mainely,Bob

Re: All this from a man who...

Todd Hughes

>Well if you remember I do believe I said they were junk saws that a fellow mistakenly got for me and I left in the back of the truck [wouldn't say i was "storing them there" just hadn't got around to stripping them of thier saw nuts] and that I wouldn't have fooled with them other wise.If your tools are "junk" like them then the acid probably won't bother them much and go right ahead and use it.Might even help some when you paint them.....Of course if I had said you could restore tools by leaving them in the back of an open truck your post would make sence but since I didn't say this I fail to understand what having junk saws in the back of my truck has to do with my thoughts on methods of cleaning and restoring tools.....I tossed out in the trash today a half eaten hamburger but please bob don't take this as a recipe for making meat loaf!.......Todd

Re: More Junk Slated for the Paint Booth

Todd Hughes

>I always hate to see guns that have been refinished no matter what they are.In almost all cases it is better to not refinish them. While probably doesn't affect much today a user gun like these nice Remingtons but people in the future someday will no doubt look at it the same way as people today think about all those people that refinished Lugars,Colts etc. 50 years ago so they would be "Pretty"......Todd who really likes those tang sights!

Meat loaf recipe

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Now, there's the fastest recipe I've ever seen for not making meat loaf. LOL.

Thanks,

Pam

Re: Meat loaf recipe

Tom in Tipp

>I think that is the secret recipe my wife is always talking about. Sure seems familar.

Tom

Let's see

Dan Donaldson

>When I was in the Air Force, it was hamburgers on Monday, and meatloaf on Thursday......Nah, couldn't be ;-)

I doubt it.....

John Longwitz-Doraville, GA

>...if current trends continue there won't be much private firearms ownership long into the future. Meanwhile I'll be content to use tips from folks like Bob to enhance my appreciation of my firearms and go to museums if I need to see their original state. I believe that goes the same for tools as there doesn't seem to be any shortage of mint or nearly so specimins out there. Any week of eBay browsing will tell you that. I believe the same goes for firearms as numerous trips to gun shows have shown me there's plenty of originals out there still if you have the cash.

I thought you Air Force guys...

John Longwitz-Doraville, GA

>...had Prime Rib on Mondays and Steak Tartare on Thursdays.

Re: I thought you Air Force guys...

Dan Donaldson

>Maybe the officers? I just know what us grunts had ;-) From what I have seen, the best food award would have to go to the Navy Submariners. One of my sone was a nuke on a Sub, and from his descriptions, they seemed to eat prety well. My other son is in the Coast Guard right now, but I haven't heard much about the food there. Will have to ask ;-)

Re: I doubt it.....

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>You mean like the repeal of the assault weapons ban? That is, now you can shoot the squirrels into mush.

Pam

So send me...

Bob Hackett

>That pile of trashed Emmerts then.I`ll even pay for the shipping chum.

Mainely,Bob-Who stays away from burgers.

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Richard Gillespie

>Bob, I follow your posts with interest. I'm trying to understand what you've done that applies phosphate as a rust inhibitor. I went up on the net and did a research on the subject and found a article about phosphate baths and their being slightly acidic. What is your source and method used if you would? Or does the phosphoric acid itself apply the coating of phosphate?

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I thought I remembered you posting a message in article format about plane restoration, but I can not find it. Did you do so?

Re: Phosphoric acid - Bob Smalser?

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>It's a bluing solution used cold...and one of the few cold ones that works exceptionally well.

It's proprietary, but somehow they got the chemists made it so there's not the after rust associated with normal bluing salts. Still needs oil (not WD-40) afterwards, tho.

Basically, you rub it on hard with degreased #0 steel wool, which abrades the surface, exposing more and more iron to be converted into an iron phosphate in a dark blue color. The more phosphate you put on....the better it puddles water.

Brownells.com "Oxpho Blue".

I find it the only instant blue satisfactory for use with tools, and I've tried most of them, including home brews.

Cian's Website  *LINK*

Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

>


Cian Perez How-To Guides

??

Todd Hughes

>I don't have a pile of "Trashed" Emmerts, I do have a stack of pretty nice ones in the corner of my shop but then why would I want to send you any of them?...am thinking of parting annother Emmert out on the ebay and would be very happy to send you the parts if you are the high bidder......and Pay for them first! Todd