Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

No clouds here, Alan

Ellis Walentine

>We have built this forum based on constructive dialogue, not character assassination. I encourage the free and *civil* exchange of ideas, including experiences with vendors.

Perhaps my reference to my editorial association with Stephen was beside the point. No vendor (or anyone else) should be subjected to unmitigated flaming. I would have leapt to anyone's defense.

We have so few rules here, I still can't understand it when people can't follow them, but, no, I think I speak for us all when I say we won't tolerate this kind of trash talking.

Innocent until proven guilty.

Ellis

Ellis

I agree with Alan

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Jim, did you choose to dump your $16 down the toilet today? No, although one could make certain judgements about spending money on donuts. :)

While I certainly agree that Rarotonga went over the top ("thief" is very strong language that is uncalled for), I don't know why more rational, measured complaints can't be lodged here. About anyone involved in woodworking related dealings.

However, there really doesn't seem to be any way for anyone to lodge such a complaint, or even a warning, about a WC favorite without piling on from the "faithful."

Pam

Re: Thoughtful debate

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>What I choose to see are alot of thoroughly thought out and educated points of view posted here for thoughtful debate. For you to just discount our opinions is totally unconfounded and dissengenuous in my opinion. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, would you care to explain your comments?

Pot callin' the kettle black?

Scott Burr Ben Lomond,CA

>

Nope, more like the pot calling the pot black.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Pot callin' the kettle black?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Scott, in spite of my flip reply, I honestly don't know what you're talking about here. I wasn't thinking of me at all; but maybe I'm being a bit thick. So, what's the connection?

Pam

Re: Customer service and expectations

paul womack

>Sometimes we feel the need to impose our ideals of how transactions should be handled on others.

It's perverse; part of the reason for customer's high expectations is the extraordinary level of service offerred by some retailers.

People: don't think the level of service offerred by Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen (read many, many posts for examples) is normal. It isn't. It's wonderful, and exceptional.

It sounds from all the evidence presented here recently that Stephen suffers from the classic problem of a small private craftsman; too much to do, too little time.

IIRC, Shepard tools sometimes hit the same issue.

This doesn't make it "nice" from the customer POV, but that's the real world for you.

Finally, just because you send someone some money, you don't own the guy; you're just a customer, not $GOD.

BugBear

Measured complaints...

Ellis Walentine

>... are always welcome, whether against strangers or friends. Considered dialogue about vendor performance (or anything else) helps everybody; outright flaming is emotional and helps nobody. It's also inappropriate here.

Sorry for this whole excursion, folks. It's unfortunate but occasionally unavoidable.

Thanks for the thoughtful way you've all added to the discussion.

Ellis

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Charles

>Very well said Alan.

Sorry, everyone

Ted Owen, Moderator

>I apologize to everyone for not catching that offensive thread in a timely manner. I was unable to check in at WC for about 36 hours, and because nearly everyone here is so reasonable and civil, I didn't bother to let Ellis or Dan know in advance of my absence. I should have.

Ellis is so busy keeping WC available to us that I feel terrible he had to take time from other duties to step in personally.

For the record, no sort of protection is afforded vendors or advertisers from the sharing of factual information which is helpful to others. Such sharing is one of the primary functions of Hand Tools. However, personal attack or flaming are never appreciated or permitted. Admittedly, I have not always succeeded at explaining the difference. Fortunately, for nearly all our readers, that difference requires no further explanation.

Best, Ted

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Rob Lee

>Hi Alan -

I, too, am a vendor that participates here regularly, and have also recently been the target of a malicious attack by an anonymous poster. Much of that thread, too, has been removed.

You note that you have have missed the original posts. Respectfully - I think a lot of the conjecture and supposition in your post does a disservice to the situation. While your post is well reasoned and balanced, it's just doesn't apply to this situation, and ultimately confuses the real issue.

There is no reason for Ellis to let an anonymous poster call someone a thief. It serves no purpose, solves no problem, and violates the premise and spirit of this board.

Everyone here is a guest in Ellis's house, so to speak, and implicitly has to follow it's rules. I participate in many forums, and have not found one that is more tolerant or respectful of diverse opinions than this one.

But, there have to be limits - and this was clearly a case where they were exceeded.

Sincerely -

Rob Lee

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

David Linnabary

>I think you've just proven that Stephen is a man well measured by how he handled a difficult situation. I wasn't aware of his business before but as a result of your issue I took the time to become so.

I'm pretty sure that this wasn't your desired effect but thats the nature of publicity.

David

I'll jump in here, finally

Derek

>Ellis,

Keep up the good work. I was wondering when that thread would be deleted. Thank you for doing it.

I had a post deleted at one time and it was deserved. I am not offended - in fact, after I submitted it I realized it was over the line.

I do like seeing people's positive AND negative experiences with vendors but NOT flames.

I just saw someone who owes me a LOT more money than the other post talked about. I did NOT say anything to his family (who I know well) or common friends. I said NOTHING TO ANYONE ELSE because it is not their problem. Sometimes you need to use some wisdom to keep from hurting other people or causing a worse problem.

Derek

Just received an order from LV

Derek

>...last week

Lee Valley is an excellent supplier. Thanks for providing the leadership which makes it that way!

Now, I'm hoping for another - my birthday is coming up and I hinted to LOML...

You have many fans here!

Re: I agree with Alan

Charles

>Very well said Pam.

Re: Sorry, everyone

Charles

>If Stephen Shepherd wants the luxury of 4 to 6 weeks shipping time then I suggest that he not request payment through PayPal or by credit card. Instead, he can accept a personal check and deposit it about a week before he KNOWS he can ship merchandise. Why does such a laid back guy need to accept credit cards and PayPal payments anyway? Hell, he's old-fashioned - checks have been around for years. Ought to suit him fine.

It is TOTAL BULLSHI* to be willing to accept money now and ship in a month and a half and have that strategy defended because 'he's a craftsman' and a 'writer' and lives frugally and simply. PUH-LEASE, I'm about to puke.

This man's business is poorly capitalized and poorly run regardless of how 'fine' a friend he is of anybody's.

People who use this board have every right to know the implications of doing business with Stephen Shepherd - he does not return email, does not return phone calls, nor pay his web hosting fees on a timely basis.

These are facts, my friend.

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Charles

>Hey Rob, have you noticed what's missing in this whole fracass?

Not one single person has come forward to say how much of a pleasure it was to do business with Stephen Shepherd. Not one.

Contrast that with the literally dozens of posts praising Lee Valley.

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Rob Lee

>Hi -

That may be - but we screw up too, sometimes twice in a row ...

When we do - we deserve a complaint, and many times we get it. But, no one deserves name calling and trash-talk in a public forum, and few people are interested in reading it.

Frankly - I'm surprised Ellis or Ted have let " Rarotonga"'s post above remain. I would've killed it immediately.

One can disagree politely without pejoratives - this isn't kindergarten.

Cheers -

Rob

Re: Sorry, everyone

Greg Sloop, Portland Oregon

>Oh, so you've audited his company and can state these libelous facts with certainty?

Sheesh.

I go for option D:

You've been smoking really great stuff.

Go away troll.

You remind me of the yappy poodle next door. We all know the solution for that situation too!

Jeers,

Greg

Re: Sorry, everyone

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>Uhhh.

We had a thread like this one going on in another forum a few weeks ago.

Again, a disgruntled customer of a wood product supplier voicing his displeasure in no uncertain terms.

Similar language was used and I could not help but feel sorry for the vendor.

I somehow feel their business has either been destroyed or seriously dragged through the mud.

I run a small business, and although I don't clear any payments until the product is being shipped, I can maybe understand why someone else might need payment up front.

As an example, I have up to a 10 week lead time, depending on the season. I need to go out , purchase lumber, fittings, make the product, and hope the client doesn't cancel somewhere in the middle of all this.

Maybe Stephen makes this product in batches and needs to finance the ingredients or chemicals involved. So he collects payment, works on a batch for a few weeks and then ships.

Perhaps the shelf life of the product is short and he can't have orders sitting in his warehouse.

Perhaps he need a few week lead time to begin preparing each batch of Moses T.

Maybe he doesn't want to or need to disclose these internal processes on his web site. I can relate to this, and this is why he makes a blanket statement and mentions that there is a 4-6 week lead time.

To attempt to destroy his business is a bit much, and this can easily occur with these malicious threads.

'Nuf said..

Norman

Re: Sorry, everyone

Charles

>As I have said all along, this has been my personal experience with him.

I visited his site many times and received a message that the 'site was down due to non payment of hosting fees' This is the truth and a fact.

Frankly, if I were Stephen I would find a hosting service who posted a bit more of a diplomatic message.

Stephen cannot honestly refute that his site was down for non payment of fees. It was. It's a fact.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'auditing' the company. Do I need to send Deloitte-Touche in to tell me that he won't return my email and my phone calls?

If Stephen is using his customers money as short-term financing that's great. Maybe he's sharper than I thought. It certainly makes sense to do so when building furniture on a commission basis, but one could argue either side regarding the finishing products and other accoutrement he sells.

Sloop, I'm glad you posted again. It gives an additional opportunity to make sure everybody understands the implications of doing business with Stephen.

You need to recall that I wanted to do business with Stephen. I wanted to place a several hundred dollar order with him. I practically begged him to contact me. If that makes me a bad guy then so be it.

My problem with Stephen is that I was simply ignored. Regardless of what you think, I think this is important information people ought to have before they attempt to place an order with Stephen.

Maybe you should simply place an order with Stephen and put your money where your mouth is. I tried. He wouldn't take my order, or more precisely he wouldn't communicate with me to tell me if he could fill my prospective order.

Re: Sorry, everyone

Charles

>You know, this comes with the new scenery. Internet forums are great for the most part and the internet has been a boon to the small businessman. But sometimes you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you screw up instant feedback on public forums is a distinct possibility.

You can't put the internet genie back into the bottle.

Caveat venditor.

Re: Sorry, everyone

Greg Sloop

>Charles...

Quit whining.

So, Sheppard lost out on your valuable business. Find someone else who wants you as a customer.

Frankly, if I were to trust someone, it likely wouldn't be you. You sound like a whiner who I'd love to pawn off to someone else as a client. (And believe me, I've had them. I shed no tears when they decided to leave. There are some customers who it will cost you no end of grief to continue to serve, and I'm afraid you sound like a perfect match.)

You've laid out your case piecemeal, no coherence, and vast contempt for SS. You do your case no dignity this way.

You read James Harrient? Go read the story about the pig farmer they sent the wrong stuff to rub on the sore on the prize pigs back....

Last post on the subject for me:

Your credability would be vastly improved if you simply took a moderate position. But you sound like Ann Coulter, whiney, looney and oh so shrill.

I have a saying. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

I'm done with the singing lessons, and clearly you're annoyed.

Cheers,

Greg

OK, everybody...

Ted Owen, Moderator

>we've covered the topic exhaustively.

This thread now needs to end, please.

No further responses necessary.

Best, Ted

Stephen Shepherd's Contribution to Hand Tool Users *LINK*

A.J. Byrd

>After reading all of the negative messages concerning Stephen Shepherd and his business that have been posted the past few days I wanted to post a link to an item provided (for free) by Stephen Shepherd that many may have forgotten about or never knew about to begin with. I feel that the way Mr. Shepherd has been treated is totaly inappropriate for this forum. I hope this will act as reminder of the dedication and devotion Mr. Shepherd has for his craft.

A.J. Byrd


Stephen Shepherd's Contribution to Hand Tool Users