Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Thanks Ellis!

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Love that last paragraph. Well stated.

Well said.

bob marino

>

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Rarotonga

>Hello,

Promoting an item on the internet, taking customers money for that item and then NOT SHIPPING IT is a true JERK!

Go ahead a "SUPPORT" a thief! Go ahead! Did he explain why he is doing this to paying customers?

What a jerk! You're a "FOOL" for putting your good reputation on the line for such behavior.

I stand by my statement

Ellis Walentine

>I don't believe that Stephen would intentionally not fulfill his obligation.

Ellis Walentine, Host

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I've read your post and am trying to employ what the learned perfessions call active listening. Short of providing you a dog to kick, I'm not sure exactly what gratification you seek here in our humble midst. It is quite obvious that you should avoid doing business with Mr. Shepherd at this time, or in the near future. Atleast that is what I have gleaned from your subtle prose.

Perhaps woodworking with handtools is not as relaxing for you as it is for me. I hear the group on the noisy side might benefit from your insightful musings and long to be united with a person such as yourself. Alas Raratonga...I will miss you, and do my best to survive without your cunning witicism's. This list will not be the same without your valued input, but we all shall try to get along without you. Please do check back in with us when you are ready to reintegrate into society. I hope all your cakes are laiden with files, and not the cheap Japanese made ones either.

All the best

Jonathan

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Alan Hamilton

>Ellis,

It's obvious that you have a long and amicable professional relationship with Stephen Shepard, and perhaps you count him as a friend as well; but it seems to me that this may be clouding your judgment a little.

I read none of the thread involved, so I don't know exactly what went on. But surely if someone places orders with someone, and doesn't receive good service, this is of some importance to the rest of us, and this message board is the best way to let others know.

From what you wrote, it looks to me like the complaining person didn't have a long and amicable relationship with Sheperd. His only dealings may have been this one single transaction, and that was the basis for his complaints. Did the bare facts of the transaction justify his compliants? I don't know, I didn't read the thread, but rarely do people get angry with someone for no reason.

It doesn't do to say poor service was mentioned on the web site. Poor service is poor service. I would like to know how prominently the notice of poor service was displayed. Was the customer warned that the specific items he ordered would be subject to a long delay? Was that warning included in a dialog box where he had to check that he accepted and understood there would be a long delay at a point prior to him finalizing his order? Or was this an ordinary watered-down statement that sometimes Shepherd gets behind with their orders?

Something that I didn't get a sense of was when the customers account was charged. If Shepherd immediately got paid from the customer's credit card or bank account, but didn't ship anything for a month and a half or more, Shepherd treated that customer very badly. If that happened, Shepherd had the use of the customer's money long, too long, before the customer had use of the things he ordered. That a catalog company would do that is also of interest to the rest of us.

I can think of no reason why an unhappy customer of Shepherd should first, privately, report his unhappiness to you and then leave it in your hands to sort things out. I have seen nothing here or elsewhere that says you are an agent of any catalog companies, or that you will act as the agent of a customer in dealing with a catalog company. The obvious thing an unhappy customer should do is to deal directly with the company himself. If, after reasonably attempts to iron things out, the customer has been unable to resolve things, well, that too is of interest to others.

On this board there have been repeated testimonials about other catalog companies' excellent service. Regular readers know well about the service of Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen, and others; the lauditory posts are invariably simply anecdotes of the great service the poster received. Surely those kinds of posts are allowed because it is in the general interests of the visitors to this board to know where good customer service is the usual state of things.

Again, I saw no part of the posts in question; but if it was simply a recitation of the poor service received, an anecdote in other words, surely that is in the general interests of the visitors to this board to know where poor customer service has been given. Where there is always a long delay between the time the vendor takes the customer's money and the time the order is shipped, in other words where bad service is the usual state of things and is to be expected, well, to know that is also in the general interests of the participants here.

In short, I think someone reporting where he got bad service, and exactly how that bad service was manifested, is perfectly proper in this forum--at least as proper as a report of good customer service. In fact, such reports are one of ways this forum is of material use and benefit to its readers. Such reports should not be allowed or disallowed depending only on whose ox is being gored or applauded.

Alan

I like this message board

Roy from Cincy

>Primarily because of the considered discussions. There's humor sometimes and mild teasing, even disagreement. However, there is always respect.

Some parts of the internet have a culture of flaming. Some people like that. It's a way to blow off steam from a protected position and say things you would never say in person. That's not the way it is here. That's why I left the other message boards and why I hang out here.

I have visited Mr. Shepard's web site on many occasions and it is obvious that he is not a high pressure, high tech. businessman. If he says it's going to take 4 to 6 weeks, then that's what it's going to take. If customers need a highly sophisticated fulfillment department, there are plenty of tool oriented sites that fit that mold. If, however, you want something completely unique from the old school, Mr. Shepard's place is where it's at. In fact, I'm going to go order something from him now.

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Tom Wolf

>Hi All,

I kind of agree with Alan on this topic. It seems like the fact that your freind's integrity was put into question and you stood up to defend him which I think is noble and applaudable.

However, when you make statements like "this will not be tolerated here" it seems like you've stepped into a conflict of interest and might be providing ammunition for criticism. I feel that if a merchant recieves criticism for his/her actions let customers that have had good dealings with him/her speak out in his/her defense. I like the opportunity to exchange opinions openly whithout fear of being censored because my ideas don't jive with the public opinion.

Thanks,

Tom Wolf

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Your post is thoughtful however (and I haven't read the thread either) I believe the issue is the flaming not the complaining. JR

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Mike in Mystic

>This seems to be the case. Calling someone a thief is a lot different than saying you received bad service.

Raratonga obviously needs to learn a little bit about appropriate ways to express displeasure. I have to say, however, that is very peculiar that Mr. Sheperd so promptly spoke up in his own defense on the message board today when it sounds like the biggest problem that these two disgruntled customers have had with him is merely getting him to communicate with them.

Personally, adults need to have a little more maturity about the way they go about things. If I were to desire purchasing some of these Moses T products and had questions that weren't answered by the proprietor before purchasing I simply wouldn't purchase from that person. It's hard to believe that there is no other equivalent product out there somewhere.

So, to summarize:

Raratonga and Charles: you need to think real hard about what you choose to get so irate about.

Stephen Sheperd: you might want to post a message on your site indicating that you will not respond to emails or telephone messages regarding your products in any timely manner.

I have to say in closing that although I don't have a present need for these types of products, I doubt I'll try to purchase them from Mr. Sheperd if I do in the future.

Mike

Rant - read at your own risk

David Miller from Iowa

>I had the misfortune of reading the entire sad thread, which was appropriately (if not a bit belatedly) deleted. I�ve never bought anything from Stephen Shepard and have no affiliation. However, I feel strongly that this forum should not be used to air grievances against vendors. I�m sure there are deep stories behind each of these matters, but they are best dealt with outside this forum. Without making a statement for or against any vendor mentioned in these confines, the world is �buyer beware�, and if you have a problem, please deal with it and not subject the rest of us to your petty grievances.

Right now, I have issues with a fraudulent charges on my credit card, eBay buyers not paying, eBay sellers not delivering, my kid is flunking out of high school and my company is downsizing � those are all my problem, not yours. I could never imagine airing these grievances and flaming people in this forum � it�s no different than keeping politics out of here (another thing about which I feel strongly, but is absolutely inappropriate here).

Just because we discuss various products here and people that sell certain products post here, does not mean this is a dispute resolution forum. I know we can never prevent people from misusing this place, but it doesn�t mean we have to tolerate it.

As an aside, when these flamers get going, the worst thing we can do is flame back. Ignoring them is the best approach.

Rant over. Regards, David

What does 4 to 6 weeks mean to you ?

Pat Riley

>

Well Said Ellis

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Running a guy thru the mud for 16 whole dollars. I spent more on coffee and donuts for the guys today.

Disagree

ScottS

>While I appreciate your position, I have to disagree...slightly. I haven't read the thread in question, so I'm just responding to the situation as I understand it, BTW.

WoodCentral is a great source of information. And as woodworkers, we need to know about vendors as often as not. Personally, I want to hear about bad vendors as well as good. I think the real problem is that people, particularly on the Internet, don't know how to write an intelligent, factual critique of a bad vendor. They're much more likely to resort to threats, name calling, swearing, etc. None of that stuff is useful to me! In fact, language like that makes me think that the poster is a kook and I tend to immediately discount what they're saying! Just tell me the facts: you did X, he did Y, you tried to contact him, you got no response, etc. That sort of factual criticism, I think, could be useful to people trying to evaluate a vendor. Name calling and threats aren't!

Finally, I've noticed that people on many Internet forums, though not necessarily WoodCentral, are very quick to post their negative experiences. I'm always amused to find that people are ranting on-line about poor service and they haven't even bothered to let the vendor know they are unhappy! Even the best companies occasionally make mistakes. Many of the vendors we know and love on WC will act immediately to correct any mistake. But if you don't bother to contact them, how do you expect them to know that something is wrong?!?

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Bill Murphy/Reading,PA.

>"What a jerk! You're a "FOOL" for putting your good reputation on the line for such behavior."

Was that really necessary?

Yes, Disagree

David Miller from Iowa

>I guess it comes down to your point - Why do people click on this forum?

You have your reasons. For me, I want to read Bob Smalser's and Woodburn Bob's articles. And I want to ask questions and give points of view.

If I want to hear people engage in character assassination, overt misrepresentation and fraud, all I have to do is turn on the news (which I am loathe to do of late).

Respecting your opinion, David

A small suggestion

Bob Hackett

>It occurs to me that what the current rash of trolls want most is public attention.What I would suggest is what I did,take it off line if you think you MUST have a voice in it.

While the person I e-mailed felt it imperative to post his displeasure in multiple over the top posts all I got from him by way of reply was a simple "Don`t e-mail me again".Problem solved.

I denied the troll his spotlight so he stopped the behavior.I couldn`t help but notice he didn`t ramp up till he saw folks were beginning to get heated about the post.This falls right in line with the theory someone posted about the troll that attacked the tutorials.They have no history here,they do not work or play well with others,they have nothing constructive to contribute.

All they crave is public attention,the best way to make sure they take thier behavior elsewhere is to ignore them on this forum.Stop feeding them and they will go back to whatever rock they live under.If you must answer them,take it offline.Thanks,I`ll stop now.

Mainely,Bob

The problim....

Todd Hughes

>is that there is no way to know what the whole story is.Who is telling the truth and what is the truth. I don't know and I don't know how anybody could know what is really happening.If I can't know what is the truth what good does it do me to hear this stuff.

Saying this I do think Rartonga would have gotten further if he had posted somthing like " I sent my payment over a month ago to buy some MosesT from Steve Shepard and still haven't gotten it has anybody else here had trouble with this vender?" instead of the inflamitory post that was posted which didn't accomplish much beside putting people off.....Todd

Re: The problim....

David Miller from Iowa

>Understand what you're saying Todd, it's just that philosphically I (and good people may disagree) believe that this should be an information disbursal forum and not a dispute resolution forum.

Again, respecting your opinion, David

Suggestion - New Messageboard

Greg Phillips, Berrien Springs, MI

>Perhaps WoodCentral should add a new link under the "Messageboards" heading just for people who want to mindlessly trash a vendor! That way all of the individuals who like reading about horrible customer service can click there to find out where not to do their shopping, and the rest of us can happily read useful and educational posts about woodworking (that is what this site is all about, isn't it?) without having to put up with the likes of Rant-o-tonga.

I know a lot of people didn't really like the kind of censorship that existed at Badger Pond, but it doesn't take very many of the kinds of threads I've been reading here lately to make me understand why the Head Badger ran things the way he did. I just had time to start reading WC about a month ago after about about six months of inactivity, and it seems as if the tenor of the hand tool board (I can't speak for the other side as I don't have the time to read there) has really changed.

So, thanks for speaking out, Ellis. Delete at will, and sooner is better! Here's to the helpful spirit that makes WoodCentral a community!

Cheers,

Greg

Re: The problim....

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>David you respectful answers to posts with opposing views is laudable. In refrence to Todd Hughes post when he proffered a script to open constructive dialogue, I am reminded of a similar service shortfall with a plane kit supplier that through this very forum was rectified to everyones satisfaction. The fact that some people are inflammatory is sad. They should realize that the old saw(no pun intended) about drawing flies with honey is based in fact.JR

Re: Spoke with Stephen Shepherd today (long)

Don Thompson - Cutler Ridge, Florida

>I think I shall order something from Stephen right now!

Ah yes...

Bob Hackett

>I remember that alittle light went a long way toward finding an answer that was suitable to all in that case.I also remember that the light did not find it`s origin in a flame.

Mainely,Bob

Re: The solution....

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>I remember that thread, and am glad that the kit supplier took the time to tell his side, which I already knew. The reason I knew this is because the supplier is a good communicator. While my order was delayed, I enjoyed every communication and update as we not only spoke about the order, but a host of other topics for which we shared a common interest.

I think the frustration here is in the lack of communication. I for one, would like to have access to Mr. Shepherd, but as it has been so eloquently put....this is not in the cards in this particular case. Let us just accept it.

regards

Jonathan