rasps

Re: rasps

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Yes,the patternmakers rasps are worth the extra money.I have a #49 and #50.These are wood shaping tools. The difference is noticeable immediately.I always used a rasp only as a last resort before I tried these.I bought the #49 to try it out but after using it I also got the #50 which cuts abit finer.

Yes, rasps wear out.The tips get rounded/dull from wear. However,if used properly and taken care of either of these should last a long time before they get dull.---Jack

Re: rasps

William Duffield on the Cohansey

>And when the get dull, you can send them to Boggs to be resharpened. Some users have observed that Boggs sharpened patternrasps are sharper than new ones.

Re: rasps

Ernie Miller Topeka

>James Town had them on sal a couple years ago and several people here said thery were a must have so my wife bought them for me. they are great couldn't live with out them any more. I haven't tried the LV but the 49 & 50 work like slicing butter with a hot knife.

Re: rasps *LINK*

Lloyd Robins

>Give Joel at toolsforworkingwood at call. He has the Nicholson and Auriou rasps. He can help you get going.


http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com

How many times...

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi William -

Do you (or anyone else) know (or have an educated guess) on how many times a #49 or #50 could be resharpened by Boggs? I don't really understand the process they use, so I'm not sure if there might be some kind of limit.

Thanks and regards -

Dave

Re: How many times...

joel

>THe hard teeth of a rasp is made by caseharding the outside surface of the metal (if you hardened the entire rasp to "rasp hard" it would crack in usage and teeth would break) so if you sharpen you get into softer material and the teeth will be sharp but last less long each time.

Re: rasps

John Hoffman

>The november issue of popular woodworking has an article about rasps and Chris Schwarz reviewed a number of them. I used them in shaping my welsh stick chair (also in the same issue) and it worked well. I puchased some machine cut ones and definately had the problems mentioned in the article. I would recommend hand cut so that the teeth pattern are not uniform. Hope this helps.

JH

Re: rasps

John Jesseph

>I have the 49 and 50, and use them a lot.

Don't forget those Microplane rasps. They may be a good alternative for the infrequent rasp user. They are cheap and cut fast.

Re: How many times...

Dave (Arlington, VA)

>Hi Joel -

Thanks for the info. I had been wondering if there was a downside to getting my #49 re-sharpened by Boggs. I had been hearing such good things about Boggs that I was wondering if I should throw my #49 in to be sharpened when I send in some other flea-market files. Now, with your explanation, I think I'll just wait until I'm sure it really needs it.

Thanks -

Dave

possible contrary opinion

bill tindall

>There is a place in Indiana that sharpens files and rasps. They sharpen the rasps for hose feet and they claim to be associated with the person that makes these pattern rasps. In fact they have a generic brand that looks to be identical to me and for a lot less. They have told me that these rasps can be sharpened three times and they did not mention any lessening of effectiveness, though I did not ask directly. The farriers sharpen their rasps several times and sometimes one has to wait on files to be sharpened if they have a large batch of hose feet rasps to do. Next time I am talking with these people I will ask about this hardness issue. I can't say that I have seen any lessening of performance of my metal files that they have sharpened. It would seem to me that if the shaprened files were significantly less hard that people would not sharpen metal files, and in fact they do.

There is a machine shop near by that will test hardness for me. I will grind off the surface of a file and see if it is less hard underneath.

Re: possible contrary opinion

Todd Hughes

>In my experance it is only cheap junk files and rasps,[mostly modern overseas made in China and India] that are case hardened.I think in these modern cases they are case hardened to save on using expensive steel, I have seen some junk rasps that i think may have been cast even. I don't understand how you could even case harden high carbon steel like is used in quality files and rasps with out hardening the steel all the way though.If rasps are slightly less brittle then files,[and I have broken many rasps] I think it is because they have been tempered less hard when they were made because you are cutting a softer substance[wood] then steel.I have had horse shoers tell me the reason that Farriers rasps can only be re sharpened a few times is because the large teeth get out of shape after repeated sharpenings using the acid that is used.Don't think it jas anything to do with it eating past the case hardened surface....Todd

Curious

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I'm very curious to hear the answer. The 49 and 50 I have are so flexible I have often thought they would snap but never have. Could it be some kind of lamination? No other file's I have ever seen flex like those two do.

Re: possible contrary opinion

joel

>Michel Auriou explained to me that if they harden the body of the rasp to the same hardeness as the teeth the rasp would crack in use. Exsentially they have a deep casehardening of the teeth. I haven't been to the factory yet but I've seen pictures of the process. It's extremely complicated because at the same time you harden the rasps you also have to worry about them warping. And they aren't tempered - the quench is designed to produce very hard teeth - soft core.

Re: possible contrary opinion

fkrow

>Joel,

The case hardening is true with Auriou however, many knife makers use old files to make utility knife blades. I know one maker in Maine who realy likes using old Nicholson files for his custom wood working knives and hunting knives.

The fact that you can bend a No.49 or No.50 does not necessarily indicate it is case hardened. If the steel is properly heat treated it can bend to some degree without snapping.

My search for the steels used in files has the majority using high carbon or alloy steels, Vermont American, Lutz File & Tool Co., Nicholson.

Regards,

Fred Krow

Re: possible contrary opinion

joel

>You might be right - as I don't know what most other makers do. I do know this is the traditional way of making files and rasps (I have another historical source where they do it the same way) and this may be why the auriou rasps last so long - the teeth may be harder in proportion to other rasps- although frankly I haven't done any testing.

Nicholson rasps

Clay Craig

>I have the 49 and 50, and use them all the time. I'll also second the recommendation of the Microplane rasps, though they are much more aggressive. As for the Nicholsons though, someone suggested I buy them direct from Boggs, and have them sharpened before they go out (even though they are brand new). I did so, and mine were noticeably sharper than new Nicholson 49 and 50s that another student at CofR had this summer, so I'll pass along that recommendation. Plus, Boggs sold me the rasps for a price about $10 cheaper (each) than anyplace else I could find, and the sharpening was free! So, I'd suggest ordering them from Boggs, and asking them to sharpen them for you - I did have some slight trouble on the phone with Boggs (they thought I wanted farrier's rasps, and we mis-cross-communicated for quite a while)

Clay

Re: possible contrary opinion

fkrow

>Joel,

Here is an interesting articles on Nicholson Files.

http://www.netris.org/RIToolmakers/FILEMAKING/File-making-H-M.html

File making - note this article indicates high carbon steel and conventional heat treatment.

http://www.watchman.dsl.pipex.com/filemaking/index.html

Regards,

Fred Krow

Re: possible contrary opinion

joel

>quoting a bit from the article (which is worth reading)

"The files are now ready for tempering, or hardening. They are first covered with a paste, made of powdered cows' hoof and other material, to protect them from damage while heating, ."

here is your case hardening. THe writer has it wrong. it's not for pretectingin the teeth. Michel Auriou said that up to fairly recently they used powdered hoofs and other organic horn material to case hard the rasps but they switched to synthetics because it was a consistent material and apperently depending on what the cows ate the horn materail would change in chemistry and cause inconsistencies in hardening.

Case Hardening

Todd Hughes

>Case hardening is basicaly where a thin coating of carbon is applied to iron or mild steel which allows the outside layer to have enough carbon so it can be hardened. This was often done to make a part or item that whose surface would need to be hard but inside which is iron would still be softer and not brittle.You see this tradionaly on older gun parts. Also done to save on the cost of steel.Many older cheap trade knives were case hardened because of this, after a sharpening the case hardening layer would be worn though into the softer iron layer.This was why Indians suposedly often sharpened thier knives with a chisel single bevel edge. I wouldn't be surprised to know that cheap files were passed off that was done this way 200 years ago as well.Traditionaly case hardening was done by baking the parts in a CONTAINER full of a high carbon contents such as bone dust, horn or leather scraps for an extended time time.I've baked in a pipe container iron strips in horn and bone dust in a forge for 5 hours and got OK results. Simply putting a past of this material on something and then heating it up will do nothing to case harden it.I would imagine it was done to keep scale from formimg on the teeth by keeping oxygen from it when it was heated, makes sense. Today there are products like Casenet where it is sprinkled on and then heated and quenched which will case hardened the work Trouble is that you can not case harden HIGH CARBON steel like quality files and rasps are made out of.This is because you are already working with high carbon steel, not iron or mild steel, and no way to put just the thin outside coating of carbon,[which is what case hardening is] on them because the entire item is high carbon steel. Also when you quenched the steel item it would harden all the way though not just the outside layer like a iron item which has been case hardened.So why case hardened high carbon steel?

I will tell you straight all quality files I have seen were made out of high carbon steel and were not case hardened. This was true 200 years ago and is true with modern ones I have seen.I have made probably over a 1,000 knives and other tools out of old files all of which were made out of high carbon steel and not case hardened.Years ago I bought some cheap forign files and forged blades out of them only to find I could not harden them because they were not made out of high carbon steel rather I suspect were just case hardened.Were they done like this to save on the cost of High Carbon steel or just because it was easier to make them this way ...I don't know.....Now I'm not saying some company today couldn't make good files or rasps made out of a material other then high carbon steel that were case hardened, ...I just never seen any, and I have seen a few files! Todd

Re: Nicholson rasps

Rusty Miller

>Who is Boggs? Do they or he have a website?

Thanks,

Rusty-Tye,TX

Re: Case Hardening

joel

>I think Auriou uses Casenet but I am not sure. They also make the finest rasps currently in manufacture and they last a long long time. THey have been the premier maker (among several makers) of rasps in France for at least 50 years (under the name millon) and the compaany goes back over 160 years.

Michel calls it case hardening. He also says doing it right is really difficult. he should know he has been making rasps since he was 14. I just not be "case hardening" in same procedure and result you are used to.

Re: Nicholson rasps  *LINK*

Greg B�tit, Vergennes, VT

>


Boggs Tool And File Sharpening Company Web site

Re: Case Hardening

fkrow

>Case hardening is a complex decision for the manufacturer.

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art113.htm

Note: It is a time dependent process in most cases, we are introducing C atoms into the low carbon mixture and that is not an easy transformation.

Regards,

Fred Krow

Welsh Chairs?

Brad in Ottawa

>John,

Nice pic! Would you mind sharing a pic of your chair and your experience with David Fleming's class?

Brad

PS - Hope you enjoyed our neck of the woods!