Why Are Plane Blades So Expensive?

Not all are

jim_reed@marietta

>I work hard to keep my costs down, but even so the blademaking business is just a hobby for me. First there was purchase of a milling machine and accessories. Cutters are $10 to $30 and sometimes do not last thru 5-10 blades. Grinders and other accessories add up. Then there is the cost of the steel and the cost of heat treating. Some blades take about an hour to produce (read labor). Final sharpening and packaging adds a little more labor and then there is the marketing expense.

Re: Why Are Plane Blades So Expensive?

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>I thought that myself so if you read some posts on the board it's fairly simple to make your own. Precison ground 1/8" 01 steel 2 1/2" x 36" cost me $57 CDN so far I have made 2 spokeshave 6 plane irons have some scrap for knives and there's still a fair chuck left. Heat treating with my electric frying pan map gas cylinder and oil add up to another 15 dollars and there's lots left in the cylinder. A little wear on my files and I use a drywall screw for a scribe.

Re: Why Are Plane Blades So Expensive?

Doug Evans

>There are a number of reasons that probably stem from volume issues.

Small-time iron makers dont have the same economies of scale that higher volume chisel makers do. Let's say a person wants to make chisels and they get say $50 apiece for them (the present market pretty much dictates a ceiling here). They probably have to sell at least 200 a month to keep things rolling. Their costs will be relatively high... they can either coordinate the activities of a number of small shops or they will have to capitalize significantly. Materials costs are relatively low but, processing costs are high. In addition their are specialized processes involved (handling, ferules, edge squareness, etc.), Assembly operations, and thus, an INVENTORY to carry and coordinate. Up until LN's recent technology vault, the materials and processes were reasonably constant. Chisel makers have more complicated design and packaging issues.

On the other hand, small time iron makers have to make relatively small design modifications to ensure their product fits exisiting plane designs. Most are laser-cutting and thus, the inventory issue is greatly reduced. A low-cost supply of tool steel, a stamp, simple packaging, low capital investment (mini-Bridgeport) make this a relatively easy market to get into. The other thing that can really affect the cost of an iron is the chip breaker (requires more processes than the iron) and if one is being authentic, the screw that joins them (not typically available). Having said all of this, the small time makers and hobbyists have had a significant impact on the market forcing the development of irons (tool steels, cryogenics, etc.) and chip breakers. Who knows what kind of an impact small time players would have if they were able to participate commercially in the chisel market? The small time players developed irons and the larger entities had no option but to follow and why not - they make better margin with their economies of scale!

Then there's the numbers... How many retrofit plane irons are sold annually in North America? ... and how many chisels?

Cheers,

Doug

Re: Why Are Plane Blades So Expensive?

Tony Z.

>I am one of the owners of a powder metal parts fabricator. In order to keep presses running it is necessary to have as complete as possible an in-house tool making shop. Granted these tools are different than blade or chisel making, however mills, lathes, grinders, etc. are similar, but more importantly, are the labor costs! Our tool makers are well versed in working with AND WITHOUT blueprints--you tell them wahat you want and it's done. In spite of that, the projects I have had done are not economically feasible, unless you do it on a large scale.

For example, a 1/8" scraper blade for a Stanley #80 cost roughly $40.00 including material, labor and heat treating. Tuning an English Stanley #90 cost about $125.00, including bedding, sole flattening & sqauring the body (Incidentally I wouldn' trade this plane now for anything, it's that sweet!).

My point is, Ron Hock, L-N, Jim Reed (I believe you sell some products) are doing all of us a tremendous favor! Patronize them in order to have them stay in business.

Re: Why Are Plane Blades So Expensive?

Todd Hughes

>I don't see how a small time chisel maker would have to make 200 $50 chisels a month to stay in business.When I used to make knives and axes,[which to be fair at an avarage of about $75 ea. was a little higher then the $50 chisel] I was quite happy to make and sell 30-40 or so a month and thought I was doing quite well. Guess it would be nice making $120,000 a year making chisels but I don't think you would have to sell that many to stay in bussiness.Tell you the truth I can't imagine making that many,[200] knives or chisels a month.....Todd

Re: They aren't

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>Most of the guys on this board probably pay for that plane blade or chisel with a little over two hours worth of their pay check, maybe even 2-1/2 hours. Compared to the hours of wages my grandfather paid for blades, I imagine those chisels and plane irons are real cheap.

I think most guys who have run a plane over a board realize the importance of a plane iron that you can get good and sharp and will stay sharp. A chisel in my opinion is not as important to stay sharp, nor does it "need" to be as sharp as a plane iron, although it certainly is nice if it is. The chisel, at maybe 1/2" or 3/4" wide, is very easily and quickly sharpened compared to a plane iron.

Original prices

Todd Hughes

>Looking in my original 1929 Stanley catalog replacement blades sold from .45 cents for a No.1 up to .75 cents for a no. 8 one. What was the avarage wage in 1929? Don't really know but I do think it was a good deal more then .35 cents or so an hour....Todd

Wages way back when

Steve Elliott

>When I got my very first real job (in 1969) as a laborer at a union papermill, one of my co-workers told me his starting wage had been 57 cents an hour. Based on his age, I'd guess that might have been before or during WWII. My own starting wage was $3.145/hr. (That's not a typo, there was a half cent in there.) So back in 1929, a wage of 35 cents an hour might have been high.

To note how times have changed, that summer job (including a moderate amount of overtime) paid for my first year of college including tuition, room and board in the dorm, and books. At the end of the year I still had some money in the bank. These days, can a college student pay for a whole year by working just three months?

Re: Original prices

Greg Phillips, Berrien Springs, MI

>My grandfather was working as a timber-faller in 1928 for 10 cents an hour. He says that he felt he was making pretty good money.

That's his story...

Greg

Re: 2 hours of work is close

Dale Lenz, Tahlequah, OK

>Found this doing a Google search.....While the average per capita income in 1929 was $750 a year for all Americans, the average annual income for someone working in agriculture was only $273........Dale

Inflation Calculator *LINK*

Tom Colligan, Peoria

>Just an fyi, a .75 repacement blade in 1929 would cost $8.75 today, as per the URL below.


CPI Calculator

Re: Inflation Calculator *LINK*

Tom Colligan, Peoria

>I hope this will work better:

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl


CPI Inflation Calculator

Re: Inflation Calculator

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>That's a interesting link but I wonder how a house that cost 15,000.00 in 1969 is worth 350,000.00 today?

Re: Inflation Calculator

Todd Hughes

>I believe it is in "1969 dollors" and "2004 dollors" and it isn't saying if you paid $15,000 for the house in 1969 it would sell for $350,000[though it certainly could] today but that paying $15,000 back then would be like paying $350,000 now.I know my Dad sold a house back in 1969 for $5,000 and i am sure it would cost over $100,000 now so probably pretty close....todd

That's right interesting

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>I put in the 1969 purchase price of our house ($15,900), and it came out $821,000 - not actually an unrealistic price in this part of California (especially since we finished the porch and got it painted, yahoo!).

Everyone else around the country will now be gagging, which implies that maybe housing prices haven't kept up with rises in the consumer price index? Hard to believe.

Re: Sales and Profits Are Different Things...

Doug Evans

>Hi Todd:

Not trying to be rude here but, Gross Sales of $120,000 does not mean that you will personally file Income Taxes that year for $120,000.

If you have a shop fully equipped to make chisels, it costs $. In the spirit of Edwin Hahn, there's a certain "knit your own underwear" aspect to all small-time tool makers but, at the end of the day you have to buy materials from somewhat more realiable sources than Army Surplus. As a single person operation, you still have to look at your time at competitive rates. If you are breaking your back at 200 or even 40 chisels a month, you will probably have to hire someone to make up the gap at... Competitive Rates (imagine the training involved and the cost of losing that person a few months later because a paper route pays more). If you are going to compete in the chisel market on a quality basis, the cache of "hand-made" batter have some "measurable" performance differences. If LN is bringing in A2 and you cant match product performance what are you gonna do? Capitalize? Rely on fully burdened outside shops walking in the door with low volumes?

200 chisels a month is nothing. A new entrant would be competing with firms that supply Woodcraft's 60 or so stores. 60 stores are going to sell considerably more than 200 chisels a month. The firms selling to them must have a quality product and are capable of offering between 25% and 50% right off the top. I know we are not trying to take on the world but, make a better chisel and affect their market; they will focus their resources towards turning up the development and quality button and if needs be... turning down the margin button. No rocket science here.

In the irons game, the field is a little more level... for now...

The best,

Doug

school expenses

jared

>I have had this same conversation with people regarding kids ability to pay for college expenses. I also started college in 1969 and I could make enough working 3 months of construction work, 49 hours a week at $2.50 to $3 per hour to pay for a years worth of room, board and tuition. Then I also had a part time job during the school year at minimum wage, which I believe was $1.60 or so to pay for car insurance and spending money. My daughter just finished her first year of college, is working full time for the summer at $7/hour. Her standard of living is higher than mine was as a student but all that asside, she can not come close to paying for a years expenses at the same public university, Iowa State. Its a good thing there are plenty of no/low interest loans available. Jared

Re: that's only 75 years

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>I would agree that there was a time where blades are probably cheaper than they are now, as there was plenty of raw materials and plenty of machines to make them. At any rate, we are paying for technology today; not just the technology to make the blades, but technology that goes to the moon and back, and things like a $40,000 titanium rod in my daughter's back. We demand a more expensive lifestyle, and therefore all of our goods cost a good bit of money unless they are imported. But still, according to your figures it appears as though a blade cost about the same in 1929 as a replacement Hock iron does today, with the higher wages and lifestyle to go along with it; must be because of todays better technology.

I Miss Understood..

Todd Hughes

>when I read..."lets say a person wants to make chisels..." I wasn't thinking of a multi worker out fit that was heavly equiped to crank out chisels in competition with the large chisel factorys but instead was thinking more along the lines of , ah,.. emmm ...just a "person" making chisels like I used to make knives. I figured it out that a that a knife I sold for $75 cost me just over $2.00 in materials with most of that going into the leather for the sheath and took me about 1 1/2 hrs to make. I would think a chisel could be made for less in materials,[no leather] and in about the same time or slightly less,[again no sheath to make] after you got comfortable with making them and set up to do so.While I have certainly spent allot of money on Blacksmith tools the ones needed to make the knives I made probably could be bought for a under $500 easly and again probably the same for the chisels.

When I made knives I never set out to compeat with Buck, Gerber, Case or other "factory" knives, how could I? unless I wanted to set up a "factory" like you describe.Instead I made knives that THEY could not compete with and did very well.I think the chisel market would be the same. A single person making chisels by hand can't compete with a factory like LN if they set out to make copies of LN chisels instead by making and marketing your chisels as being truely hand forged and not stamped out etc. etc. you will be creating a market that LN and others could not compete with.

Kind of interesting, almost wants to make me to light up the forge and start making chisels...oh well I'll set down till that feeling passes!......Todd

Re: I Miss Understood..

Ernie Miller Topeka

>Yah Sit down no need in working when there is cheap money and cheap woemen to be had well at least cheap money. Any good sales lately? Where do for a good story.

Hand Forge and Treat Some A2...

Doug Evans

>If the new standard becomes A2 and all else appears to be inferior to the market, you're going to have some tough going flogging O1 or carbon.

Back to the point... at this juncture small-time guys can be competitive in the irons game (they did a great deal to create it). It would not be so easy to compete with chisels.

Doug

Re: Hand Forge and Treat Some A2...

joel

>While A2 can make a decent chisel 01 chisels are also pretty fine. Things go in phases. A2's big advantage is edge retention. which is great in a plane blade, but 01 in my own personal informal tests seems to take a lower angle and sharper edge. Just what I want in a paring chisel and bench chisls with which I pare with a lot.

Chisels are just a lot harder to make and the advantage of A2 over 01 in manufacture is that they don't need to be forged. but smaller makers who don't have the CNC equipment (and why would they) but they can still make and sell really good forged chisels - Barr being the leading US chisel maker in that arena and many Japanese chisel makers being in that boat too.

As the overall market for high end woodworking gets bigger, bigger companies will do more and more innovation and of course the larger volume will always have a price advantage. Smaller companies who primarily rely on gaps in the market and price competition will find themselves increasing out of the market unless they offer other competitive advantages.

I thought A2 isn't so simple to harden

Tim of San Leandro

>I'm not a smith.....and don't make my own metal tools...

But I thought A2 is air-hardened and requires a controlled cool down rate from the annealing temperature to be properly hardened. Whereas O1 can simply be dunked in a vat of oil. Which kinda makes O1 much more simple for shopmade tools....but like I said, I've no experience :- ).

Tim

Unique and handmade

Wiley Horne--Glendora CA

>Todd made a correct point, and his logic is untouched by the A2 comment. I read Todd as saying to prospective toolmakers, 'don't try to produce a commodity blade'--produce a unique blade. A handmade blade. If the primary trend in the tool industry moves to A2 (or 3V or one of the ASP's, etc), it doesn't matter. He can go to Damascus or pattern-welded and remain a step or two ahead, and the factories aren't gonna be trying catch up with what he's doing. The high-end Japanese smiths have differentiated themselves in similar ways, and are doing well. Apparently, they've taken a look at the option of trying to run faster than the herd, and have decided that what Todd says is right--go where the herd can't go.

Wiley

By the way, if Todd ever did decide to make a limited edition of chisels, I'd sure as little green apples be there in line to sign up. Not because I need chisels, but because they'd be quality handmade items with an individual character.