Why Are Plane Blades So Expensive?

If I made chisels....

Todd Hughes

>I would make them out of antique wrought iron with forge welded cast steel bits in them just like the better antique chisels were made. Would push the fact that they are truely made by hand,[none of that drop hammer foolishness] and can be tempered harder and better because of how they were made and the fact I am making them by hand.Wouldn't hurt to push that they would be a 100% authentic style and made correctly just like the originals.Maybe I am missing sombody but I don't think anyone is making chisels like this today and i think there would be demand for a producyt like this. C&W comes close with the planes they make but of course they are not made the same way as the originals though maybe do resemble them somwhat.....Todd who would rather make saws

Re: If I made chisels....

Dean Burke - Yakima, WA

>These sound like Japanese chisels to me; unless your wrought iron isn't sourced in old ship anchors. :)

Dean

Re: If I made chisels....

Todd Hughes

>While these Japanese chisels are often promoted in the catalogs as being hand made from what I have seen is that they are really made using power and drop hammers which shape the chisel while it is being held by hand.With those that are being turned out in large numbers I am sure they are using dies etc. to make them...Don't really think this is the same.....I always have to smile when i read the add copy about the 90 year old Japanese master blacksmith who is at deaths door but he's still cranking out many 100's of chisels a month making them all "by hand"...Yea OK .....Todd

Re: If I made chisels....

Dean Burke - Yakima, WA

>Not all that many are made using hand forging these days; but some are. I haven't seen the claims about 90 year olds cranking out the work; but most of these really good blacksmiths have apprentices. Anyhow, if you ever go into the business, I'd buy at least a couple to test them out.

Dean

Re: If I made chisels....

joel

>I agree with you in spirit. And certainly agree that there is always a demand for the more interesting artisain craft produced item.

However I cannot think when was the last time a master blacksmith in a smithy of any size hand hammered anything that was repetive work. Trip hammers were used in the west for at least 500 years (probably longer too lazy to look it up) and with or without trip hammers the master had apprentices. The master holds the tool and the apprentice hits it. Trip hammers just replace the apprentices (and it's a bit of a skill to use trip hammers too). typcially the trip hammer is used for basic forging and the anvil and hand hammer for finish work. Japanese masters typcially work that way. On big stuff it would not be uncommon for several apprentices to work the hammer under the masters direction because the open time where you can forge metal before it is too cold to work is pretty short.

Dies aren't used. An order or magnitude of force is needed to force a chisel into a die. Swage blocks are used for gouges and things like that.

The speed of operation is incredible. The welding of the layers of steel happens in seconds. and in a good production shop the master keeps a lot of irons in the fire so there is no waiting time for stuff to heat up.

You are Correct....

Todd Hughes

>Trip /Power hammers have been in use since about forever and your old Witherbys, Swans, Bucks etc. were certainly made using them,[along with dies] in a factory setting.Is a fasinating study on all the small Axe "factorys" often staffed by only a few men that sprung up along streams in the early 1800's so that they could use the water power to make thier axes...

We had this discussion a while back...I think a hand made tool should be made by , ...well hand with out the use of machines esp. electric ones.There IS a difference I think between hitting what you make by hand with a hammer you are holding and guiding and letting a machine hit it for you. Would you call a dovetail hand cut if I told you it was cut out by a machine while i held the board? Hey after all back in the old days apprentices often cut the dovetails so what would be the difference ....Todd

hand made? (unnecessarily long)

joel

>"Are those cookies made from REAL girl scouts?"

- Wednesday Addams

By the letter of the law I suppose you might be right but to me "hand forged" means someone guided the saw under a hammer - the hammer might be apprentice or trip hammer powered.

the key difference is that if you drop forge a chisel the steel goes in all directions and the grain of the steel is different (and less good) than in you draw out the steel in one direction using multiple blows.

By the same token not forging - just machining produces an inferior chisel in traditional chisel steels 01 etc. A2 is very difficult to forge but doesn't need the hammer hardening to create an edge so machine works great.

As for dovetails - what I like about hand cut dovetails is that you can vary the design and have lots of flexibity. other than that I don't care. If you can get the same result with a bandsaw all power to you and if you sell a few more pieces by saying it's hand made it's certainly sort of hand made and some customers need that reassurance. In the US today hand made really means - not factory made on a big production line. (unlike truly hand made furniture made in third world sweatshops today and sold everywhere which we term mass produced.)

My interest in handwork is in production speed. I want to become a decent 19th century apprentice. My primary choice of tools most of the time is which is closest and as my speed of work improves and my skill improves I find myself using fewer and fewer tools.

I find not having any power tools is productive, safe, relaxing but most important, allows me to have a nearly noiseless shop in a tiny apartment. My entire shop is less than 10'x10'. but my work is no more or less meritorious than a guy with lots and lots of tools. It's what is produced that counts. Learning hand tool technique has allowed me to produce things that many people with machines only cannot produce but people with both hand and machine skills can produce a lot faster. Good technique and practice make it possible to use hand tools very productively and thats what my goal is. Can I call my furniture "hand made" yes but who cares. As soon as I can move my shop and get a little space I want a bandsaw and a planer.

(in the interests of full disclosure I have a cordless hammerdrill, a high speed dry grinder, and two sharpening machines in the office, somewhere I have a makita wet grinder and a circular saw)

Re: If I made chisels....

Mike Lietzow

>Hi Todd and all,

Todd writes of a business model for wouldbe chisel makers to market them as being made "like the better antique chisels were made"

Probably based on aesthetics more than anything, I have a preference for older tools. But I also want to equip my shop with tools that will work really well so I'm curious; approximately when do you think chisel makers converted from hand made to other methods?

Cheers,

Mike

Re: If I made chisels....

Todd Hughes

>I don't think probably any American factory made chisels were ever pounded out by hand since there was such a widespread use of trip hammers.Probably different in England where more labor was used and with cottage industrys. I never said that a vintage factory chisel isn't as good as a hand made chisel, actually i think most [at least older ones] are probably better made then most hand made chisels that were pounded out by some local smith.I disagree maybe surprisingly that pounding a chisel out by hand makes a better chisel then one that is drop forged with a machine. I do think a chisel that is hardened and tempered by hand has the potential to be better then one done in batches in an oven...also has the potential to be worse too! I don't think I could make a "Better" chisel then an old Swann or Witherby and really doubt if there is any room for any REAL improvement on quality vintage chisels like this no matter how they are made or what they are made out of.I would be very satisfied to make one that performed as well as one of these chisels

I think to most people that use hand tools while it is important that they perform well there is more to it then just that.Lets face it the "best" handle for a chisel is probably some type of day glow plastic material that you could drive a truck over so why do wood workers demand the inferior wood handles?....Todd

Re: If I made chisels....

Mike Lietzow

>Thanks Todd. I know nearly nothing about iron- or steel-making processes, but I know what I like. I only have one or two Swans but have several Witherbys plus some Bucks, Bartons, and Whites. I have some newer Bergs too (wood handeled), but they aren't very appealing; unlike the older Berg plane and cap irons I have that are handsome _and_ substantial.

Regarding the superiority of "some type of day glow plastic material"; Iccckkkkk! I could never understand the interest in the Buck Rogers line of tools; nor all of the fuss over the Yankee/Bell System braces. Gimmee a Fray brace equipped with a Spofford chuck and I'm happy. Which brings up a question I've been wondering. How often is a ratcheting mechanism actually a useful feature on a bit brace. To me it's usually just a nuisance, only serving to put my hands farther away from the work.

Cheers,

Mike

Ratchet Braces

Todd Hughes

>I think the real advantage of a ratchet on a brace is in doing carpentry work where you are drilling a hole up aganst something where you cant turn the brace the entire full circle.Probably one of those things that you don't need it very often but when you need it you need it.....Todd

Re: If I made chisels....

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>Hi Mike-

For me personally, I use the rachet about half of the time I use a brace. I find it really useful for working in tight areas and corners or close to the ceiling where you can't get a full radius swing. I say this in spite of having a full range of brace sizes to choose from. But then again, this is mostly carpentry use, and for furniture it is definately not as useful except for retrofit (mistake correction) use.

Re: Ratchet Braces

joel

>for large holes the ratchet is great because you can just pull on the part of the sweep where you get good leverage.

Re: Ratchet Braces

Mike Lietzow

>Well heck Joel, that's why I have a Whimble brace :-)

Now that I think about it, I've found the ratcheting mechanism to be handy on more than one occassion. I guess having a drawer full of bit braces with only one of them being a non-ratcheting type (well, two if I count the Whimble) makes me feel short-changed in the non-ratchet type and I'm too slow-headed (copyright T.H.) to adjust the racheting mechanism to the non-ratchet mode.

Cheers,

Mike