Hand forged?

I agree !

Todd Hughes

>I think so many wood workers that while they may use some or even a majority of hand tools now they are coming from having started out using mostly wood working machines.These are what I call "Machine" men , even when they are using handtools they still want thier work to look like "Machine Work" that is perfect like a machine would make because they are still in the mindset of the machine. They are still Machine Men even when using a hand tool.This is the guy that wants his plane sole to be perfectly flat to at least NASA specs and uses a machinist micronmeter marking gage when he makes a bird house.I guess no greater compliment could be paid him then to say his work is "Perfect",.... like a machine's. Me I think work that is made by hand should look like something made by hand and NOT be perfect.When I see an antique that was made by hand the attractivness is seeing the imperfectivness that comes from being made by hand.Today so many wood workers are really hesistant to have thier work look hand made....even when it might be!

When I used to make knives and axes they had to be made correctly like the originals were made.The easiest way to make an accurate copy of somthing is to make it in the same way.The only power tools i used were a drill and a grinder and both was used only very sparingly.When ever I made a new style knife I would make it using just a bow drill and a hand crank grindstone and if I couldn't make it like that I didn't make it because I wouldn't make something that would be dependent on using a machine no matter how small.

I guess I have been lucky because I do not come out of a machine background and I really think it has helped me to do correct hand work.May be elitist but i don't see how you can compare somthing that is hand made by hand with something somebody used a machine to do the work for them even if they controlled the machine...it's still Machine Work.....Todd

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Adam, I respect what you have to say and even moreso what you are doing. However, just because I don't happen to agree with your logic I'm not at all saying you're not entitled to it and I certainly wouldn't label your position as an untruth or a lie. I would appreciate the same courtesy in return ;>)

I must say, your work strikes me at first glance as somewhat crude and I'm not using that word in a derogatory, vulgar way. I could not construct a piece similar to the picture you posted and have any hope of satisfying my typical client.

I believe that period furniture, as represented by your posted picture and constructed as you have demonstrated was the norm for its time and was exactly what the customer expected. Perfectly executed joinery, uniformly dimensioned stock, etc. were not the norm, although I think it can be demonstrated that some craftsmen/artists did achieve those levels of perfection.

So, I agree with you when you postulate that if a project is completed start to finish with the most rudimentary of hand tools, a fresh sense of appreciation for the process is the modern day craftsman's reward. However, to label any other approach to producing a 'hand made' product as a lie or untruth is painting with a very broad brush...don't you think?

Perhaps a distinction such as "Period furniture handmade with Period tools" would apply to the work you produce as well as to the work I produce? We'd just have to let the customer know which Period we work in......period..

Re: Hand forged?

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Remember the old saying, Ernie, about never watching sausage being made if you wanted to continue enjoying it?? ;>)

Re: continuous spectrum

paul womack

>"Forging" can be applied to everything from a smith with hammer and anvil, to a hydralic stamp.

Shaping can be done with multiple drected strikes of a hammer, or via dies of varying complexity.

Smiths can use "strikers" to ease the labour, or they can use mechanical hammers.

Where precisely you stop calling it "hand forged" is not terribly well defined.

dictionary definition

BugBear

Re: continuous spectrum

Todd Hughes

>While as you point out there are many types of "Forging" I think when it comes to "Hand Forging" it is pretty simple....it is Forging done by Hand....If I said a peice I made had "Hand Cut" dovetails I think most people would expect that they were,... eh cut by hand and not that the wood worker just held the board while a machine cut them. Why is it diferent when it comes to Hand forging?.....Todd

Interesting note here

Bob Hackett

>the LN planes that everyone seems to favor for handwork are machined using CNC machines,as are the LV versions.Does this put them out of the running for "hand made" work?

We could also jump off the edge of reality and say that you can`t call your work "hand made" unless you first start by walking into the forest with an ax or a buddy and a two man crosscut and start with a tree.Then flip a(hand minted) coin to see if you or your buddy will be the pitman.

Unless you are stuffing logs in one end of a machine and finished pieces pop out the other it`s not fully machine made.Some hand work is usually involved,even if they only work the controls of a machine or guide the stock through.

I also think that unless the "Not correct unless no electrons used" side of this discussion ride a horse and wagon to work while wearing clothes they,or someone they know,hand wove the cloth for and step off that wagon with brain tanned moccasins on the arguement is weak.

It brings to mind the Amish folks I`ve seen who buy electric stationary equipment and then convert it to hydraulics powered by a huge diesel motor set outside the shop.Whatever makes them happy.I don`t have to understand why they do what they do to know they make some very fine furniture.I would suggest that you not tell them it isn`t handmade unless you want to devote a large part of the day debating your point of view.

The handtool challenge that Adam has proposed is an excellent way to get a new perspective on the craft.I think you`ll find that if you undertake the projects with the mindset of doing things in "the old way" you can get a better reference point to view both the craft and your work.

Mainely,Bob-Who knows by experience what hand forged is,and has the"handmade" tools to prove it.

Exactly!

Bob Hackett

>And it`s an indicator of a craftsman`s skill and confidence as to how far he ventures into the workmanship of risk or leaves to the certainty of machines and jigs.

Mainely,Bob

The Zen of Quality

David Miller from Iowa

>A lot of interesting, and obviously heartfelt perspectives. Also a lot of semantics. Philosophically, does it matter as long as it is "quality"?

Recomend reading "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" - an interesting treatment of the concept of "quality".

Re: Handmade vs Machine Made...I Think Not

TMStock

>All of us use one or more simple machines to make our projects. Even Bucky Beaver fells trees with the use of simple machines (wedge and lever, abiet built in to his body). We are all machine woodworkers whether we acknowledge it or not - we're just discussing the details.

Suffice it to say that no "handmade" object is made without the use of one or more machines, simple though they might be. The most complex power tool may be broken down into these same simple machines, leaving only motive power and degree of 'risk' to allow us to debate relative purity in our craft.

The division of motive force into electrical and non-electrical to rate relative merit is suspect (or just silly) when you consider that a tablesaw, jointer, sander, or drill press may be just as effectively powered by hydraulic pressure as by electromotive force.

So we are left with Pye's workmanship of risk and the probablity of any one act ruining the work. Where do we draw the line, when many 'handtools' carry little more risk than their powered counterparts? I don't know, but it does lead us to other questions.

Is a scraper plane inherently less noble a tool than a card scraper?

Is the use of a cabinet scraper to refine a planed surface increasing or decreasing the worthiness of a piece?

Is the use of a jack plane to smooth a cabinet side more noble an act than removing those same tool marks with a smooth plane?

How long do we have to spend navel-gazing before we can return to doing something useful?

Re: Exactly!

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>I forget the definition of a jig but I think it is something fixed to a tool to facilitate work...like a tail vise/front vise fixed to a bench...or a bench itself fixed to floor or wall.

So if 'hand made' must disavow all jigs I'll never be able to claim anything I make is 'hand made'. ;>)

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Steve Wargo

>If you want to make an honest living, you must use power tools. Unless you fall into the category of historical museum worker, working purely for the entertainment of others to watch you work, i.e. Colonial Wiliamsburg. That's not to say that there is anything wrong with it, it's just not at all practical in this day and age to work only with hand tools. I build furniture on a commission basis. I can't afford two apprentices to prepare stock, shile I construct pieces. So I use a thickness planer. It works for me. I'm glad that Adam has both the time and energy to go through all of the steps needed to reproduce outstanding work using only a piece of flint, but that's not for everyone. I plane all my surfaces by hand, and rarely use sandpaper. I cut most (I said most) of my tenons by hand. I use hide glue and rarely clamp anything. I rarely spray on a finish. I don't call my furniture hand made... I call it heirloom.

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Steve Wargo

>Is it at all possible that the reason that furniture, art, etc, in museums look old, a bit ragged, dented, faded and dinged is because they're old and used?

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Paul Warnock

>I take great offense at the claim that i am "lying" when I bill my furniture as hand crafted because I choose to use a thickness planer and bandsaw. I make my living from my woodwork. if a client pays for it, I will happily do all work by hand including felling the tree. Most do not want to waste money on such trivial things. My joinery, carving, inlay and finishing are all done with human power, mostly because i work very efficeintly this way. Instead of pontificating endlessly on your hobby, work for a few years in a shop. I am certain you will beg to be back in your air-conditioned office where your paycheck comes regardless of what methods you use.

I like my office.

Steve Wargo

>

Re: Heretical perspective coming up here....

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Great point. I don't think I'd be going out on a limb here to say a violin made by Stradavarious is hand made. While you can call a modern made violin hand made, I doubt that todays greatest concert players would seek it out and pay enormous sums of money for it. So what's the difference?

Stradavarious would hand select only the finest slow growth dense trees of resonance for his instruments. He would check the back plate by tapping, and only his ear would know when the shape produced the proper resonant tones. He would carefully shape all the pieces by hand, and yet he still managed to produce over 1,100 instruments in his lifetime.

Stradavarious would complete the job using his own hand brewed varnish, of which even today some mystery exists as to it's composition and effect on the superior tone and brilliance of his instruments.

This to me is the definition of hand made at it's high water mark. If any care to waterdown this definition, it's all the same to me.

Re: continuous spectrum

Nicholas Carey

>

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While as you point out there are many types of "Forging" I think when it comes to "Hand Forging" it is pretty simple....it is Forging done by Hand....If I said a peice I made had "Hand Cut" dovetails I think most people would expect that they were,... eh cut by hand and not that the wood worker just held the board while a machine cut them. Why is it diferent when it comes to Hand forging?

---

WRT to this discussion…I think you're confusing a drop hammer with a trip/power/striking hammer (different names, same thing, AFAIK).

The first is a machine that with one drop of the hammer die-forms the workpiece. The International Journal of Manufacturing Technology, in the article "Intelligent Classification of the Drop Hammer Forming Process Method" describes it like this:

---

3. Drop Hammer Forming

Impression-die forging, often referred to as closed-die forging, accounts for the bulk of commercial forging production. Drop hammer forming is a type of impression-die forging that is used extensively in the production of aircraft engine nacelles…Two matching dies are used. The bottom die, fixed at the station table (anvil), is called a tool. The top die, attached to the hammer head, is called a punch. Drop hammer forming derives its forming forces from the dead-weight fall of the hammer head and

punch.

---

[Int J Adv Manuf Technol (2001) 18:91. © 2001 Springer-Verlag London Limited]

A trip hammer, AFAIK, is different: it's just an automated hammer, not much different than a burly apprentice smith with big muscles and and even *bigger* sledge. The smith shapes the workpiece by hand and eye—moving the piece so as to best direct the hammer strikes.

The boys over at AnvilFire would probably disagree with you WRT to this

[click the photo above for more on power hammers]

not constituting handwork.

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Often people tend to denigrate work done by others. I find it incredible that you'd called felling trees trivial. In fact, like anything, there are secrets in the trade that, if practiced properly, provide better logs, more easily worked, and the like. Now I wouldn't expect your clients to know this, but you should.

And Adam's work is not his hobby, he gets paid to do it.

Pam

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Paul Warnock

>I didn't mean to denigrate the work of sawyers, they are very talented and knowledgable people. By trivial I was refering to the level of human powered work involved not the importance of such work done properly. I did not realize that Mr. Cherubini relied soley on the income of his furniture making for his sustenance. If this is so, then I apologize and stand corrected, If not, then I stand by my earlier statements.

Don't know about that.....

Todd Hughes

>I worked over 10 years full time blacksmithing and the only power tools I used and neither saw that much use were an old drill press and a Belt sander I made myself out of a hay elevator. I could have replaced both with hand operated machines with out much trouble and don't think my work would have suffered, first 6 years I used an old hand crank post drill that had a washing machine motor on it till my neighbor finaly shamed me into getting a 60 year old drill press. I mainly made axes and knives and when I got into it I had other 'smiths tell me you have to get arc welders torches, power hammers, power hack saws etc. etc. to be competive...I didn't buy it then and don't buy it now...From about day one I had more work then I could handle and one of the reasons I stopped was I was just getting so far behind.The reason I was so succesful was exactly because I DIDN"T use machines and my custermers wanted a product that was made correctly.The people that bought what I made appreciated that it was really "Hand Made" and knew enough to know it was as well as being willing to pay more for it because it was.While I am talking metal working now I have no doubt I could have sold hand made wood work just as well.I have a freind that makes Flintlock Rifles and one of his best selling points is that he does all the wood work by hand and gives it an authentic finsh using hand scrapers etc.. I'm not so stupid to say that there isn't a market for machine made wood work,[or black smithing] of course it is and it's a larger one then the hand made market for sure but it is possiable to make a living and a good one making stuff by hand....just takes more thought,research.....and wheather you like to hear it or not I think skill....Todd

Re: continuous spectrum

Todd Hughes

>Not confusing anything, the Master Smith I apprenticed under had two "Power" hammers that we used about everyday for 3 years.I consider them to be just as much a machine as a Table saw or Band saw. They run off electric, have moving parts and are designed to replace human power....sound like a machine to me...What do you think? To say that since they replaced a human striker it is OK to say it is still hand work when you use it is like saying since a band saw is just replacing the work an apprentice would do sawing the wood for you then you are still doing hand work when you use one. I don't think you are sawing by hand when you use a band saw.

Back to the original question about the Plane Blades I would be VERY surprised if they were being made using a power hammer and not a drop hammer with dies that forged them to shape since it would be very hard to get a production item like this to uniform size etc. unless you used dies .....Todd

Hey Todd

Bob Hackett

>I hear what you`re saying,but I see where you`re at.

MB

Read it,good book!

Bob Hackett

>

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Eric Lund

>Very interesting thread. I'm a little late jumping in because I don't "send" from the office.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy the definition that electricity is what separates hand made from otherwise. Hand powered, but not hand made. That's no less a copout than the drop forged versus hammer and anvil. Both are tools that require skilled craftsmen to operate. If I cut a board with a "hand" saw versus a jigsaw, do I not use my hands to guide both tools? If you insist that this be taken to the ultimate in hand made, then I propose this as the actual task:

You are standing naked, before a tree. You must make a table. You have no tools but those which you can craft from the resources you can scrounge from the land. The only design for this table is what is in your head, because you don't have paper or pencil. You have nothing but your mind and your hands, feet and body. Get to work.

If you don't accept this as the true "hand made", then I propose we let each craftsman determine what they consider as hand made and accept that.

Cheers,

Eric Lund

Great post!

Bob Hackett

>You`ve got Adam`s challenge beat hands down.Can I wait till it stops raining to get started?

Mainely.Bob-Are shoes(moccasins)allowed?

I don't think so

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Holding a tool screaming at thousand of RPM's with right angle guides and fences does not take the same skill to operate as to perform the same task with muscle powered tools. Whether the screaming demon is hand held or a stationary machine with the hands guiding the work does not make a difference. The muscle powered tool takes skillfull caring strokes with all attention on the task at hand. If your mind wanders, you have to use your skill to fix the piece. If your mind wanders with the tailed apprentice...you call 911 and try to find flying appendages.

With one, all one needs to do is open the box, set the appropriate fence, guide or stop, chuck a bit or blade and youre a carpenter. No skill needed. With a hand tool, you must practice, practice, practice to gain the desired skill level and would rightly earn the title of master craftsman. Just one mans humble opinion. Like my old man used to tell me..."there are no quick and easy short cuts in life...if something looks to good to be true, it usually is"

Regards

Jonathan.