Hand forged?

Re: Hand forged?

Todd Hughes

>I am pretty certain these irons are made using a large drop hammer that with one hit forms them to shape. Imagine they have some guy that sticks the red hot steel blanks in the machine so that they can then say it is "hand forged"....Will leave it to you to decide if this is really hand forged. Think the advantage here is it sounds better to say in your add copy that your irons are "Hand Forged" instead of being machine made.

Personaly I think something that is Hand Forged should be Forged by Hand and not involve the use of machines.Pretty obvious to me. Just like I don't see how a wood worker that uses a bunch of electric machines can say his work is "Hand Made" instead of calling it like it is, "Machine Made"...Is there a real advantage to an iron that is pounded out by hand over one done by a drop hammer? probably not in most cases.Remember too that drop hammers have been used for 100s of years and I would be surprised if many original planes that you could find have blades that were not made using one. I do think that a Plane Iron tempered and hardened by "Hand" can be a better iron if the person doing it is experanced and knows what he is doing. Of course this is harder to do then to pick up a billet of steel and stick it in a drop hammer.....Todd

Re: Hand forged?

Rob Lee

>Robin -

In most cases - "hand-forged" means someone is holding the steel blank, and it would imply that more than hammer blow (drop hammer) is being used to acheive the final shape..with the person repositioning the blank being forged between blows, and making a judgement about when the process is finished.

Hand forging is a more gradual process than drop forging, and can produce a higher quality product - but not necessarily always, nor will products have the repeatability/consistency of drop forging. Hand forging also produces a product which doesn't have flash to be trimmed, and can use lighter equipment, and simpler dies... and can be more suitable for small runs.

Cheers -

Rob

Re: Hand forged?

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Yeah...I s'pose....at what point do we say something qualifies for the description "hand whatever"??

100% Pure beef sausage can have no more than n% non-meat by products, etc. and still be "100% pure".

Perhaps a "hand made" chest was hand sawn using Disston saws (machine/hand made tools), hand planed with Record planes (machine/hand made tools), and assembled with hide glue (by-product of modern slaughter house) & cut nails (probably machine made) in a shop with gas heat/electric lights/running water/telephone/computer/etc. The finish materials??? Oh yeah, the sawyer probably used a water powered saw to rip the log up.

Now, in Adam's case, much or maybe all of the above doesn't apply (except he probably used a car to get to work)...and in Steve's case, he rides a bike to work but much of the above probably does apply. Oops.....the debate goes on ;>)!!

Re: Hand forged?

Ernie Miller Topeka

>There you go stirring stuff up. 100% beef but which part of the cow? that is the question?

It's easy....

Todd Hughes

>I think a hand made item should be made by hand with out the use of power machines in the making of it.Does this mean you have to cut the tree down with an axe? I don't think so, just like a hand forged item doesn't have to be made out of iron you smelted in your backyard. I do think all the actual work you do to the stock you start out with should be done with out the aid of machines, esp. if the machines do a good bit of the work.While probably not technicaly hand made I would still consider the work to be hand made if say one hole was drilled with an electric drill if everything else was done by hand....The fact that a Disston saw you used was made using machines doesn't have any affect on anything since it is still a "Hand" tool since it is used by hand and isn't powered. Just not a hand made hand tool....Todd

Re: It's easy....maybe not

Brian in MA

>If I read your definition right, only work that was taken from rough lumber all the way to finished product without the use of power tools qualifies as "hand made". That seems a bit narrow to me.

If I use powered planer and jointer to thickness the stock but then do everything else by hand, is it not "hand made"? Or what if I buy the lumber already planed and thicknessed, but then do everything by hand - is that "hand made" even though machines were involved in the process?

What If I use power tools to prepare and dimension my lumber, but then cut all of the dovetails, rabbets, inlay, etc. by hand and use my best infill smoother to finish the pieces - i.e. all of the real "craftmanship" work was done by hand?

Yes, it's easy to come up with a PERSONAL definition based on your own preferences/prejudices, but it's a lot harder to come up with one that applies in any general or universal way. I'd like to suggest that "handmade" refers to the real craftmanship stuff such as cutting joints, mouldings, decorative touches, etc. being done by hand and not the relatively unskilled drudegwork of stock preparation. Yes, preparing rough stock with hand tools takes skill, but the level of skill needed is realtively low compared to, say, cutting a half blind dovetial joint. Mostly, what it takes is basic technique, a few tools, physical strength and a lot of time. Same goes for ripping and crosscutting boards.

but that's my own personal definition based on my preferences/prejudices....

I'm not a...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>...Chris Becksvoort disciple, but I can appreciate and admire his work. He handcuts all exposed joinery; everything else is machine-made. I still consider his products to be hand-made. I think to classify his stuff as "machine-made" is too narrow; I think creating a separate classification ("handwork-enhanced finery"?) requires too much effort to implement. It's still hand-made. To me, anyway.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Steve Kubien

>

Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Let's cut the baloney. We all know what hand made means. Hand forged may be less familiar to us, but its no less clear to the initiatied.

Manufacturers use these terms to mislead their customers. Rationalizations like this one (no offense to Brian, this is a typical argument)are wholly disingenuous:

If I use powered planer and jointer to thickness the stock but then do everything else by hand, is it not "hand made"?

If the customer is comfortable with that fact that a piece (chisel or furniture) is made by machine with some hand work where it makes sense or shows, why not just be forthcoming and say so?

I see many guys rationalizing their lies and using ambiguous terms like "bench made" or "hand rubbed" or the like.

For anyone participating in the current hand tool challenge, the difference between some power tools and no power tools is immediately evident to worker and customer alike.

Just for Brian's sake and I don't mean to sound too emphatic (I'm not picking on you, Brian), this statement:

"...unskilled drudegwork of stock preparation. Yes, preparing rough stock with hand tools takes skill, but the level of skill needed is realtively low compared to, say, cutting a half blind dovetial joint."

simply isn't factual. There is no unskilled drudgework in a cabinetshop. Moreover, in my shop, sawing is the biggest deal there is. I would never let an unskilled "apprentice" do my sawing for me. Here's why:

* Sawing is the place where you ruin your project, or make it easy to put together.

* Sawing is the most demanding physically.

* The saw is the tool you want to optimize and avoid using.

* Sawing is one of the few operations that is not progressive. Its either right or wrong. You can plane a little, then plane a little more, seemingly with no ill effect. Not true of sawing. You can't fix a bad saw cut with another saw cut.

Of all tools that effect the assembly and final appearance, I think the hand saw has the greatest effect. Most woodwokers will never understand traditional woodcraft if they don't work start to finish with hand saws at least once.

Adam

hand tool curmudgeon

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I think about all any craftsperson can say is that his/her work is by hand or not. Beyond that, if one really wants to judge the quality of the piece, look at it. Are the edges, leg carvings, etc. crisp and well-formed? Is the finish deep and interesting? Are the proportions elegant? Are the dovetails well done? And such like.

This idea of labelling something as hand made, bench made, and so forth is all related to sales and marketing, not quality. It's all to inform someone who doesn't know enough and/or feel comfortable enough to trust their own judgement. Hmmm, or misinform, as the case may be.

Pam

Re: Hand forged?

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>The hand is composed of many small bones called carpals, metacarpals and phalanges. It's good to have a firm hand in money matters. Hands down, the best way to make a good impression is to hand deliver something. You never bite the hand that feeds you. Have you ever been dealt a good hand? Hand crafted, hand painted, hand squeezed, hand ground, lending a helping hand, slight of hand, handmedowns, it's all good.

In my book, hand made means one of a kind, made with personal skill, care and attention to detail.

Defined

Made or prepared by hand rather than by machine.

Re: Hand forged?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>And don't forget about those smiths whose apprentices are actually wielding the hammer(s). How is that different from a machine apprentice like a drop hammer?

Pam

hands down a very interesting post

joel

>

Let's give him a hand, shall we?

David Hay @ Denver

>

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Brian in MA

>Adam - you are of course entitled to you opinin and I won't debate you on it. I will, however, dispute your assertion that "we all know what that (hand made) means" because I don't think that we all do. It is a matter of opinion and level of acceptance that everyone decides on their own. For example, the original poster of this thread is willing to accept the use of power tools to fell the trees and prepare the logs, but everything thereafter has to be done by hand. Personally, I don't see much difference between involving a power tools at the tree felling/log preparation stage and at the stock preparation stage. To me, it's essentially the same activity but on two different scales. Thus we have a difference of opinion on how far "hand made" should be taken.

What we're really talking about is aesthetics - the wonderful variations and inconsistencies of traditional hand tools versus the more uniform consistency of power tools. Aesthetics are personal value judgemets made by each individual. As such, they are not univerally applicable in any meaningful way. Obviously, by virtue of the fact that we are readers of this board, we place a great deal of value on hand work, but I don't think that it is fair or accurate to assume that everyone here and elsewhere has the same sense of what that value is.

Regarding the term "machine made" - Is the surfacing or cutting of stock to length with machines actually "making" anything? (I guess you could argue that it's "making" a board, but wasn't it a board to begin with?) It's all prep work for the actual "making" as far as I can see. If a machine can actually take the rough materials, cut and shape them to size and assemble them into a finished product, I would consider that "machine made". Otherwise, what we're really taking about is "made with the aid of power tools by humans" as opposed to "made with the aid of non-powered tools by humans". In both cases, the tools themselves - powered or unpowered didn't "make" anything. The humans did.

A final point: If I use a handheld electric router or power plane to shape a part, aren't I using a "hand tool" ? The machine itself is not doing anything but the cutting - same as a plane or chisel, just a lot faster and more consistently. (You can accuse me of blasphemy if you like).

Re: Hand tool curmudgeon lives

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Brian,

I'm still not picking on you. Don't get mad at me, I'm just talking here.

I appreciate what you are saying and I find truth in it. I have and use an electric lathe. What's the difference whether an apprentice turns the stock, or a motor turns the stock, or a river turns the stock? Duplicators aside, turning is a hand process. I get that. Yet, when discussing my furniture, I make sure folks know I use an electric lathe.

Otherwise, there is no ambiguity. Wood comes into my shop and gets worked by hand. How it got felled and sawn has nothing at all to do with me. A hand sewn shirt has nothing to do with the fabric. The shirt was either hand sewn or not, the furniture was either hand made by you or not, the chisel was either hand forged or not.

Let's not pretend there is some gray area. If you are using machines to work wood, your not working by hand. Its not a purism thing. Its a truth thing.

Besides all that, (and the reason I'm writing is) I strongly encourage you to work entirely by hand at least once. I think its an enlightening experience, not at all like "roughing" stock with factory equipment and "joining" by hand.

People make this claim, again, disingenuously (am I spelling that right?) You need straight boards to make joints, but that straightening sure isn't being done by hand. You need a square edge to make good dovetails, but that isn't being done by hand either. When it comes right down to it, the guys who make these claims (I'm thinking of specific professional reproduction furniture makers I know) do very little by hand. The difference between these guys and North Carolina factories is very slight.

So I'm saying they should knock off the "hand made" thing. Their stuff is not hand made. I saw a guy with a curly maple hutch with perfect curly maple moldings saying he was a "traditional" craftsman doing things the "olde fashioned way by hand". What a load of hooey.

This is what hand made really looks like. This is what I see in the museums, gaps and all. Its more Flintstones than many of us are willing to accept.

Adam

Heretical perspective coming up here....

Howard Toronto Man

>Hi all -

Please keep in mind that I've devoted the last five years to perfecting my MDF skills ;)

I think that someone who EXCLUSIVELY uses electric machines and power tools but does the whole project with their own hands can sincerely claim their results are as handmade as the woodworker who performs EVERY SINGLE PROCESS using hand tools.

Why?

No assembly line environment.

No giant computer-programmed production machines with people feeding raw boards in one end and ending up with CNC-routed, surface-laminated, edge-banded, gang-drilled finished boards at the other end.

My 2C.

Howard

Re: Heretical perspective coming up here....

joel

>THere is a good point here.

a sweatshop with a hundred workers hand assembling a TV instead of using a compenent insertion machine - that's hand made but nothing to be proud of.

THe crafts people at Steinway making pianos using the latest in power machinery to make movements and the latest glues to do laminations - well that's certainly machine made but it's an accomplishemnt -

Workmanship of risk

Jim Cosgrove

>One thing that has seemed to come through in this discussion is the implied equivalence of "hand made" with "lack of electricity" (or other non-human power source). That got me to thinking about my Barnes mortiser. Is it really that different than an electrically-powered hollow chisel mortiser? The Barnes can make me sweat, and it does leave somewhat different marks on the bottom of the mortise, but set up for using the two "machines" is virtually identical. To be truly "hand made," should the mortise be chopped by a mortising chisel and a mallet?

I wonder if a more useful distinction to describe what we've (up until now) called "hand" and "non-hand" work comes from David Pye and his book The Nature and Art of Workmanship. In it, he talks about "workmanship of risk"--essentially, working under conditions or in a manner that provides for the possibility of screwing-up the work. Hand carving involves workmanship of risk--let your hand slip and you can ruin hours of work. Feeding a plywood panel into a CNC machine does not involve (much) risk. Workmanship of risk involves manual skills. It often results in pieces that are less than "perfect." (But ones that I would argue have "soul.")

How does this distinction play out in the current conversation? Well, for example, a lathe -- whether powered by foot, apprentice, or electricity--involves about the same degree of risk, although some methods would have someone expend more calories. The same would hold true for my mortiser example. But a table saw would involve much less risk (to the work) than a hand saw. With a good fence, straight and parallel rip cuts involve little effort. The same can be accomplished with a handsaw, but the woodworker must concentrate to keep the cut straight in two dimensions (up and down, and along the cut).

I'm not suggesting that anyone come up with a "risk" index and label his or her work with such. I'm merely thinking out loud that there may be another dimension that describes the concept we are trying to convey.

Re: Heretical perspective coming up here....

Vic P

>I agree with Howard. I for one do not have the time to run my own business, help with the household chores and cut lumber by hand. In mho you should use all the modern conveniences you can afford, and do the the best hand work you have the time for. Turn out nice non assembly line work that you can be proud of and call it hand made if you want.

Re: Hand

Moses Yoder in White Pigeon, MI

>In the end we each have to answer to ourselves, and some of us of course believe we will have to answer to a higher being in the end. I don't believe there is any benefit other than to Myself for working wood by hand. It simply does not make the piece more functional and neither does it necessarily make it a higher quality. If you look at a pieces form and function, what difference does it make whether the piece was made by "Hand" or not? I notice in the picture you show the form changes very slightly because it was made by hand. I guess it is up to the individual whether the means justifies the end. I didn't notice whether the hardware was all hand forged or not, and I'm assuming if you made the piece the lumber was cut on a power sawmill, so I'm guessing that piece is not entirely made by hand. But in the end, the way that you work and what you say about your work will really effect you and not have much effect on anyone else. I think a person can go overboard with pride in their work, but I don't really see much sense in it.

I tend to believe in black and white, and minimize the gray areas. I wouldn't claim that my piece is hand made or hand rubbed or Amish made unless it was. I believe in form and function, and am not real hyped about how much quality is added to a piece because it is "hand made", so I don't advertise pieces as being hand made.

Re: The Six

TMStock

>So as we saw (wedge), plane (wedge, screw, inclined plane, wheel and axle, lever), chisel (wedge, lever), hammer (lever), clamp (pulley, wedge, screw, wheel and axle), and fasten (screw, wedge), it's good to know that there are no machines used in our art.

All by hand, right?

The correct definition of hand forged

Roy from Cincy

>Robin,

"Hand forged" in this case is using the word forged in the other sense, i.e. like forging a check. See, some little guy is sitting in a back room hand filing off sweetheart logo's from old Stanley irons that he got off E-Bay and hand scribing the Clifton logo onto them. Then, of course, he has to hand polish the whole iron to cover up his tracks. Therefore, they are both hand forged and hand polished.

You believe this don't you?

I don't believe it matters whether or not the little guy uses a hand file or a dremmel to grind off the sweetheart logo. And I don't think it matters if he uses a power buffing wheel or water stones, left over rubbing compound last used on his '87 Olds and old tee shirts to polish it up. Since he is using his own hand, eye and skill, it still qualifies as hand forged.

Now, the benefit of hand forging, you ask, is the effective response to the ageing population. What with the strain on the social security system and shortage of greeter positions at Wal Mart, we old geezers need the employment. Else, we have to lurk around wood working message boards or chase the nurses at the home.

I choose to lurk Roy because

Todd O. Cronkhite Native of Maine

>them nurses are the home are FAST! ;~)

Todd O.