Need advice on dovetail saw

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Rusty Miller

>I'll vote for the Lie-Nielson dovetail saw. I have one and love it.

Rusty-Tye,TX

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Todd Stock

>Assuming you want a western-style open or closed grip dovetail saw:

Both Adria and LN have loyal followings here. The principal advantages of these more expensive saws are in their more comfortable, traditional grip, narrower kerf, and consistent set out of the box.

That said, nearly any decent new or (especially) vintage dovetail or small back saw saw can be properly sharpened, set and the handle reworked/replaced, and do the same job.

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Todd from San Jose

>I use a Dozuki "Z" saw, Woodcraft # 12F27. This is an excellent saw for the fine work of dovetails. It has 26 TPI, so the cuts are extremely clean. This is the saw that Lonnie Bird requires for any of his classes that dovetails will be cut in. I already had a 21 TPI dovetail saw, but Lonnie strongly suggested that I spring for the Z. I'm glad I did.

Todd

A couple questions

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Currently I cut the dovetails with the PAX 8� straight handle saw, but it just does not feel �natural� for my wrist to hold the saw like that, and [my] wrist gets tired really quick when I have to cut several drawers at the time.

Your wrist? How do you hold the work? How do you begin the cut? I don�t care much for straight handled saws. They give me cramps in my hand, but never my wrist. If you are holding your work vertically, are you beginning your cut with the saw held parallel to the floor? (i.e. cutting straight down into the end grain?)

Adam

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Stephen in Ottawa

>Frank,

There is quite a difference between the saws you have mentioned. Personally, I prefer pistol grip or closed handled Western saws, but you have to decide that based on personal preference.

Both Adria and Lie-Nielsen make excellent dovetail saws. I don't own the LN but do have a LN rip carcass saw which I've used for dovetailing. I suggest you do a search in the archives. You will find several posts on these saws.

If you are willing to tune your saw, you could go for a cheaper saw, with rip teeth and sharpen it. They often have too much set, but that is easily remedied by abrading the side the teeth.

Regards,

- Stephen

Re: A couple questions

Frank

>Exactly as you described; it�s clamped in the front vise vertically, the saw is held parallel to the ground, ripping down. Since it�s my right hand, the thumb is to the left from the direction of the saw movements; index finger is on the top of the handle. The rest of the fingers hold the handle.

Is there another way to do it :)

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Frank

>I appreciate your input Stephen, and of course everyone else ho replied so far.

I agree that handling of these tow types of saws is entirely different. I used the pistol grip saws for all other operations but dovetailing.

The saw I am using now is adjusted and tuned up as Frank Klausz describes in his video (it sure made a world of difference �before� and �after�), but the position of the hand while I am cutting does not feel natural.

LN is certainly nice but it�s in the class of �Mercedes-Benz� for me right now. Currently I am thinking of something like Lee Valley dovetail saw � nice open beach handle, $36, 8�, 17 tpi. I am sure with the proper tuning it�ll be a great cutting machine :)

Thanks again!

F.

Spehar Toolworks *LINK*

Steve Kubien

>I have a DT saw from Vlad at Spehar Toolworks. It is a dream to use. The handle is quite different than the Adria or Lie-Nielsen but I can't believe you'll ever find another this comfortable. It tracks straight and cuts effortlessly.

It is easily one of my favourite tools.

Thanks,

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ont.

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Spehar Toolworks Dovetail Saw

Re: Spehar Toolworks

Frank

>That is one impressive saw! Not to mention the handle is made to fit YOUR hand.

Thanks for the link.

F

Re: A couple questions

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Frank,

Obviously different guys have different opinions on this subject. If you look at traditionl tools as I do and compare tools within tool families (e.g. surface planes, backsaws etc), you begin to see similarities in designs and techniques. I come up with the techniques I recommend based on these observations and my experiences. Otherwise, we're all in the same boat over here, the SS Clueless.

Just in case you're interested:

In some cases, saws are a good example, you see modern manufacturers paring away the features once thought to be critical (or typical of other tools in the family). It appears to me this is done in ignorance or for reasons few of us appreciate (i.e. cutting costs, marketing to unskilled users, etc). I'm thinking of saw handle angles, which really lies at the heart of your discomfort.

Here's a step by step. See if this doesn't work better for you.

1) The work should be held vertically. Don�t cock it sideways for tails to make the sawing vertical. The top of the board should be nearly elbow height (if possible/practical).

2) Set your gauge to the mating board, and mark across your board on both faces.

3) Mark the tails or pins (your choice) on the face facing you and the end grain. I use a mechanical pencil, but the traditional tool is a striking knife. Frankly, I love my striking knife and swear by it, but I don�t use it for this.

4) Whether your saw has a traditional open handle or a straight handle, hold the saw with a relaxed grip, with fore finger extended (pointing). The natural position of the blade will now be roughly 45 degrees toe up. These handles are designed for this position. Begin the cut at the near corner. Rotate your wrist to progress dead on both lines (end grain and face) at once. If you start to screw up, hold the good line and lay down in the bad. But keep in mind, when cutting tails first, you only need to maintain the end grain square line. When cutting pins first, you only need the square face line, not the end grain line.

5) After you�ve sawn the two lines you see, tilt the toe down and saw through the remaining stock blind using the near side kerf to guide you. This isn�t the time to fix a wayward cut. That will have to done later with a chisel. This will be the only time your wrist will be funny at all.

Try that, and see how it works for you.

Adam

Re: A couple questions

Frank

>4) Whether your saw has a traditional open handle or a straight handle, hold the saw with a relaxed grip, with fore finger extended (pointing).

I'll try it. It sounds like my wrist will be turned roughly 90 degrees CW from my current position.

The natural position of the blade will now be roughly 45 degrees toe up. These handles are designed for this position. Begin the cut at the near corner...

This makes perfect sence! Since most of the cuts are done along the horizontal line (through-dovetails), cutting with the pistol-like handle is MUCH more natural for human hand.

So, technicly speaking, cutting pins for blind dovetail joint would be better with the straight handle... I guess it's just a matter of preference.

F.

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Ron in Richmond Hill

>You have a lot of choices for a DT saw. But remember you are looking for a rip saw and not all advertised DT saws are necessarily rip tooth. Check them out carefully.

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Jack Guzman from Maine

>Adria's are very nice saws. You would never regret buying one.---Jack

Re: A couple questions

Dan Donaldson

>For the straight handled saw, I hold it basically with my thumb on top and index finger along the side (for a right hander, about 90 degrees clockwise from what you described.). I tried holding mine the way you described and it did hurt my wrist. I have both types of saw (the LN independence and the straight handled dovetail, both 15 tpi rip) and can hold the line better with the straight one, but that is just me. Others prefer the open pistol grip.

I think I screwed up

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Dan

The grip you are using is the one I was trying to describe. Maybe somebody will take pity on me and post a picture.

Frank wrote something about 90 degrees CW and horizontal. OY! I think I'm not making this clear.

Adam

Re: Which Technique?

Todd Stock

>This is where I think different techniques result in different preferences.

The cutting edge of the pistol grip saws hang roughly parallel to the floor in a comfortable grip, which goes with establishing a kerf across the top surface and then canting the blade to establish the tail angle. This is what I learned, and works well for me.

Straight handles - as you noted - produce a good blade position for cutting both lines on the 45, as for non-through work or the other through dovetail technique.

Klausz and Kirby favor the first approach and use pistol grip saws, while Frid (RIP) and others using straight handled saws or frame saws seem to favor the second method. Seems like the chosen technique, as well as how you hold the work, might influence what feels comfortable.

I suppose that if your pins and tails are coming out OK, but the saw is not comfy, it's time to try something different.

Just re-reading an article by Phil Lowe on backsaws, and his rationale for his choice of tools was essentially that:

1. It's what he learned and is comfortable with, and

2. He has not yet seen anything his choice of tools won't handle

Re: Spehar Toolworks

Todd Stock

>This is interesting...the mean line of the grip seems to be about 60 degrees off vertical versus about 45 for the LN and the Adria.

The STW grip looks like it favors a toe up grip versus level; how do you saw through dovetails?

Re: Interesting point

Christof Hartge

>Hello Todd,

interesting point about the 60�. I measured my old english Backsaws and found they all have a 120� angleto the back which is the the same as the 60� to the vertical. If I'll lay my angle finder to the palm of my hand, I find the same angle between indexing finger and the thumb-ball. So I wonder if L-N and dria really do have 45�?

Christof.

Makes You Think

Todd Stock

>Check the shot of the STW saw and LN dovetail saw on each web site - big difference in handle angle, although the effect of which will vary based on bench height and usage. I'm just thinking aloud on this, but my guess is that grip angle is just as important to comfort as contouring, thickness, technique, etc. I've also noticed that some Japanese saws meant for longer strokes and larger timbers (hence, higher off ground) have angled grips.

The attached shows a rehandled Tyzack dovetail saw that is not very comfortable (although the grip is well shaped and contoured), the IT dovetail saw, the early LN/Indy carcass saw (note diff erence in contouring), a rehandled 14" Sandvik back saw (should have used a closed grip and less angle - not comfortable; redo), and a 14" Adkins that is awaiting attention.

The green lines show back to grip angles.

Re: Spehar Toolworks

Steve Kubien

>Yeah, the angle is a little unusual. When I first looked at the saw I was a tad skeptical. But it seems to fit my body structure/bench hieght situation just fine. I'm only a little guy at about 5'9" - 5'10" depending on my last hair cut. My bench is a little tall for me (intentionally). I can't remember it's height but I remember thinking that I prefer a taller bench so I built it that way.

As for how I use it...I start my cuts toe-up and slowly lower it in until I am parallel at the bottom. Seems to work for me.

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ont.

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BTW, I encourage anyone to try out some of Vlad's products. He is a great guy to deal with. A true gentleman.

Re: Spehar Toolworks

Todd Stock

>Thanks for the review and link.

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Frank

>Thanks to everyone for vast amount of valuable information!

Just to summarise: like with many other tools, any saw should do the job as long as skills are there and the saw is properly tuned.

Cheers and happy woodworking!

F.

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Dave W

>Well, Father's day was good to me. I received a Lie Nielsen Dovetail saw. - Awesome. The grip is extremely comfortable, really fits my hand well (I wear an XL glove size). Sounds like a cliche but it really does feel like an extension of my hand. The finish on the handle is also extremely comfortable - it's finished with a 'wiping varnish' according to the literature that comes with it, but it feels more like unfinished wood, not a plastic type of feel at all.

I actually requested this saw, and I did some research first. Adria - very nice and less expensive, but the blade is about 1" shorter than LN. I think that the extra inch will make a difference when I'm trying to use the full saw length on a stroke. Spehar toolworks - beautiful and the custom-made handle is a selling point, it's also significantly less expensive (I belive $85 vs $125 for the LN). The radical angle of the handle and the fact that the handle points the force of your stroke to the end/tip of the blade rather than the midpoint were issues that I considered.

In the end, the LN is a tool that I'll always be proud to display. I only hope that my dovetails live up to the tool!

(One question for you connoisseurs out there: The saw's brass back is not perfectly parallel to the sides of the handle. Not much, it's only out by about 1/4 inch over the length of the blade. Is that a problem that is worth sending the saw back for? Thanks, Dave W.)

Re: Need advice on dovetail saw

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>I'd contact Tom L-N at the contact link cited on the web site. He will give you the answer. One thing about Tom...He wants everyone to be completely satisfied. Particularly about quality control.JR