Plow Plane expectations/disappointment

Re: Plow Plane expectations/disappointment

Frank Mutchler in Colorado Springs

>Paul, don't be too hard on yourself. I also have found it somewhat of a challenge to set up and use a plow plane. I don't have as nice a one as you do, I generally use a #45, #50, or a Record #43.

First, the cutter needs to be very sharp, as sharp as you can get it. Resist the temptation to use the plane until you get the cutter scary sharp.

Second, the mouth is generally non existant for all practical purposes and so a very light cut must be taken. Because of the poor mouth configuration I tell myself I'm using a guided chisel rather than an actual plane.

Third, plow with the grain beginning at the far end of the groove. Remove about 2 or 3 inches per pass and work your way back to the start of the groove.

I'm sure others will chime in soon to try help. Don't give up because these planes are very enjoyable to use once you pay your dues ;>)!!

Re: Plow Plane expectations/disappointment

David Barnett - Venice, FL

>Despair not! First, let me ask you (as you were somewhat unsure of your terminology), you said you needed a little 'groove', but later said you cut a rough 'dado', which to me means a cross grain housing.

If you used a plow* on cross grain, yeah, you might have problems, as you'd have needed a dado plane with a two-spur knicker iron to sever the long fibers before excavating with the large cutter.

If, though, you genuinely meant you plowed an unsatisfactory groove with the grain there are several things to consider (and as you said you're a newbie, I'll be basic). Was the stock you chose a forgiving piece of timber with a gently rising even grain, and did you plane in the proper direction? Did you take the lightest passes possible with the blade set to take a thin shaving? Where on the board did you begin your stroke? At the 'normal' position for a bench plane or near the end of the board like you might for a beader? Sometimes it's easier to start at the far end with plows working your way backward, allowing the fence full contact with the timber and avoiding the rude bump when a too deep iron tries to bite the leading edge of a plank. There might be other things to try, of course, but maybe these ideas will get you started.

I started with a plow similar to yours, but have lately switched to a Stanley #50 for most projects. Both work fine. Plows are finicky, but it's likely your plow will do fine once you come to terms with it. With persistance, a bit of practice, and maybe some advice from Adam Cherubini, you'll likely be plowing clean grooves before you know it.

*or plough, of course.

Re: Plow Plane expectations/disappointment

Brad in Ottawa

>Do you have a pic of the groove you were trying to plow?

The only thing I can suggest in addition to previous comments is that the wedge doesn't look to firmly contact the blade. Is this correct or is it a shadow playing a trick on me?

Brad

Re: Plow Plane expectations/disappointment

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi

>Paul,

I agree with what the others have said about taking a light cut and starting at the opposite end you normally would and working your way back.

Another thing you may want to check is that the bottom of the skate is flat. Just like the sole of a plane should be flat for good performance, if the skate is concave, it won't cut at all and then with one more tap, the cut is way too rank.

Good luck and don't give up, plows are fun to use when they are working well.

Jim Crammond

Re: Plow Plane expectations/disappointment

Paul Kierstead

>Thanks for all the help so far! I have a little hope now! Ok, some of the information I left out...

I was cutting with the grain in some reasonably behaved pine. Did a little test with a regular plane just to check the grain direction. So, a Rabbet would be one with the grain that has only one side (i.e. on the edge), and a Dado would be cross the grain, not edge, what would be not edge with the grain? Not that it matters.

I began the stroke at the nearest to me and was going the full length (about 18"). This would appear to be one of the problems....never thought to try the far end first. "Entry" was definitely a problem.

Adjusting the blade was problematic. I do use "wedged planes" a little (a little 1/2" infill shoulder plane quite a lot), but this one proved more painful the most. Indeed, the blade tended to go from not cutting to gouging. I will have to check to see if the rail is straight; even though I have lapped planes, never thought to check the rail.

The wedge is a little funky and does not touch the blade at the bottom. I suspect it was damaged at some point. It seems to have to be placed a little deep as well, compared to other wooden planes I have seen. And require a little more force to keep it in. Perhaps I should make a new one.

I'll fettle a little, sharpen and try starting at the other end. And keep at it a while longer :)

Words, words, words

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>"So, a Rabbet would be one with the grain that has only one side (i.e. on the edge), and a Dado would be cross the grain, not edge, what would be not edge with the grain?"

"Groove" is the common term.

Most people use "rabbet" ("rebate" in the Queen's English, although when was the last time she cut a rebate?) to apply to both cross-grain and long-grain "steps" at the edge of a board - which I find interesting as I think about it. Since "dado" and "groove" are understood to refer specifically to cross-grain and long-grain cuts exclusively, why isn't there a similar distinction with rabbets?

Those ever-pesky edgy rabbits...

David Barnett - Venice, FL

>In the interest of further clarification: a rebate (rabbet) deeper than wide, whether cross-grain or not, is properly called a 'groove' according to Graham Blackburn in "Traditional Woodworking Handtools". As for English terms and their definitions, or is that English definitions and their terms... whatever... I'm still fazed from when I first realized that 'cleave' means to split, divide, rend, and that 'cleave' means to adhere, join, fasten. Which is why I so strongly advocate for the universally disambiguating Esperanto, my native tongue. I can distinguish 'cleavage' in any language, of course.

Speed Vs Smoothness

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>You've already had some excellent pointers above so I'll just add one other observation on my part.

I don't think there is anything wrong with taking a coarser shaving with a plough (plow in the North American dialect :-) plane. The object is to create a groove and the purpose of that groove is generally for joinery purposes. Speed of the operation is of more importance where appearance is not at issue.

So long as you are in control, the groove goes where you want it, the groove is the right size; the glue and the mating piece are not going to complain.

On the other hand, if this groove will be seen, by all means try for a smoother finish.

Plough plane - wedged fence adjustment

Andrew F in Australia

>is tricky.

In addition to all else that's been said, it's also critical to get the fence parallel to the blade axis.

On a wedged plough, this could be anywhere and not necessarily aligned.

Misalignment = ragged cuts.

Hope that this helps and;

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Plow Plane blade adjustment *LINK*

Jonathan Peck - N.Y.

>Paul asked:

"Adjusting the blade was problematic"

It would appear that your blades are "snecked" (just to add another WW term to the mix) That "D" shaped piece at the top of the blade is there to help you adjust the depth of cut. Just give it a little tap with a hammer after the blade is wedged.

Here's a link to Jeff's (self) really useful WW's notebook


Adusting a Wooden Plane

Do not agree

jim_reed@marietta

>Sorry to disagree, but my experience is different from yours. I have found that taking LIGHT cuts makes life easier. Blades must be very sharp and set to cut an almost transparent shaving. This light cut makes the resulting groove smooth and helps compensate for the lack of a mouth. Light cuts also make the plane easier to control. My best sessions with a plow are making cuts so light that little effort is needed to move the plane. One other point to note--never plow through knots. Use a chisel to remove them first. Plowing knots throws the plane out of adjustment and dulls the blade.

Re: Words, words, words

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>My definitions:

Rabbet/rebate = with the grain on edge of board

Groove/grove = with the grain, not on the edge of the board

Dado = cross grain, not on the edge of the board

Fillester = cross grain on edge of board

Fillet = the exposed thickness, or difference between the "field" or un-planed section and the planed section. This term is used often with respect to panel raising. The "rise" would be the angled portion that goes into the groove and the "field" is the untouched area left in the center of the panel.

In this case, plows/ploughs make grooves primarily. Some use them to make rabbets. I prefer not to, since I think I can make a rabbet faster by starting with a narrow groove, then wasting to it with a chisel. I clean up the rabbet's rise (the wrong term here, but its functionally the same) using a rabbet plane.

Adam

I disagree

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I respectfully disagree with Jim.

Ploughs are fitting planes. We want all their mouths open to take a big bite. Sharpen your irons well and hog material out as fast as possible. If you find you physically can't push your plane, then obviously you need to back the iron off. Otherwise keep it rank and get the job done. Keep in mind that I shy away from my larger cutters. I only use 5/16", 1/4", and 1/8" (which is a glorified cutting gauge at that point). Wider cutters take more effort, so mayeb that's where Jim is coming from.

Fitting planes not withstanding, only my smoothers and glewing jointer produce wispy shavings. Everything else produces good size shavings.

Adam

Re: Plow Plane expectations/disappointment

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>I can't add anything substantive to what's already been said.

The skate's got to be flat, they often aren't. The cutter's got to be sharp. Don't expect the taper on the cutters to match the wedge. You must reshape the wedge to match the cutter(s). I suggest reshaping it to the 1/4" cutter, then try all the other irons with that wedge. I use a feeler gauge to check for gaps between wedge and iron and body. I sought out a matchging set of irons in hopes they would all have the same taper. Regardless, you may find you need to either trade your irons with somebody elses, or make more wedges. In the end I found I only ever use two or three irons so it isn't hard to get three to work with a single wedge. You get the idea.

Lastly, (for having nothing to say, I sure have said a lot) I always ask myself when things aren't going well: "Is it me, or is it the tool?" In this case it sounds like its the tool. My guess is it needs to be tuned up.

Just so you know what to expect or shoot for:

I have a very similar plow and can plow a 1/4" groove, a 1/2" deep faster than you can find your router, extention cord, and router bit. Maybe 20 passes to create that groove which could be 1 minute, maybe 2, depending on the length. Goes pretty quick. There is no struggling or fussing.

You've got a real nice looking tool there. My advice is to stick with it. It'll be worth your while. I prefer wedge arm over screw armed plows. I think its a better design. Put a chisel between the fence and the side of the cutter to set the fence accurately, and repeatibly. Very easy to do with a wedge arm (you hold it upside down fingers on body, arm wedges and fence, arm ends in stomach. Great tool.

Adam

Perhaps

jim_reed@marietta

>this is one reason everyone keeps coming back to WC. I love these discussions where everyone posts his successful methods and the methods are different! The interchange of ideas helps us all by opening us up to different techniques. Every piece of wood presents its own challenges and it is nice to be able to switch gears if the old tried and true fails.

Re: Words, words, words

Ralph Johnson Mansfield Tx

>Is this the difference between a dado plane and a fillester plane. I have been woundering about this for a long time.

Ralph

I'm no help...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>But, I find this post fascinating. So much good info. Makes me want one! I use a 043 for small grooves.

While we're at it - plane recommendation?

Tom Colligan, Peoria

>I'd like to begin using a plane for cutting groves for starters, i.e. drawer bottoms. Can you offer a recommendation for a plane?

My inclination has been to acquire a Stanley 45.

Tia,

Re: I'm no help...

Paul Kierstead

>Yes indeed, great info and help. I'd like to thank all the respondents! I will be revisiting the plane and am sure the results will improve.

Re: While we're at it - plane recommendation?

Jonathan Peck -N.Y.

>Try the Stanley #46, it won't brake the bank and is a solid performer. You should try to find one that's not missing any of the cutters. The #46 has a skewed iron and knicker so it will also work well cross grain. Reminds me....I could also use some new drawers:-)

Re: While we're at it - plane recommendation?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I really love the Record 043, which are readily available for less than $100. The 044 is also great, but not quite so available.

Pam

Re: Do not agree

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>I understand what you are saying and if you enjoy the work, there is no point in hurrying. I'm saying that it isn't necessary to take gossamer thin shavings to achieve the required purpose. Which is the opposite of smoothing plane usage, but that was my point.

As Adam said, if you have to push too hard, then there is too much set on the iron and you should back off.

There is another time as well where it is advisable to take it easy and that is when starting the groove in brittle timber (WRC for instance) to avoid unneccessary chip out.

Fillesters and dadoes

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi Ralph,

The simplest explanation is that a fillester is like a dado plane with a fence. If you go to www.antiquetools.co.uk (click on old tools, click on wooden planes) you'll see pictures of both.

Am I answering the question you are asking?

Adam

Re: While we're at it - plane recommendation?

John, NY

>I too like the 043, got mine for less than $20 in UK.

Find my 45 too cumbersome for just groove work although I should probably work at getting more used to it...