LN chisels

Re: LN chisels

Fred Krow

>My understanding from the Springfield, MA WoodWorks show is that LN is having problems with heat treatment. I assume this is from complex shape machined for socket design in A2 tool steel.

The A2 steel is well established with many years of use for custom knives, plane blades and custom tooling. The socket chisel is a unusual configuration for air hardening tool steel and additional cryo tempering. This is not official from LN, just the feedback from their retail dealers.

Actually the delay is positive, LN would rather get it right than release less than optimum products because of scheduled date. We see this too often in USA manufacturing.

Regards,

Fred Krow

why the interest

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>Why are LN chisels so egarly anticipated? Have they invented a new steel for them? (The question may sound perjoritive, but it is not intended to be)

Re: LN chisels

Todd Hughes

>I had read that the new LN chisels were going to be cast rather then machined or forged out of a block of steel.As to the socket chisel giving them trouble during the harding and tempering process you would think if they were making a chisel they would only be hardening the blade and leave the sockets soft like original chisel makers did even when they made thier chisels out of solid Steel .....Todd

Because

Robin Frierson

>Rob Cosman has told me the chisels will hold an edge an incredibly long time. Are there other A2 cyro chisels out there?

Re: LN chisels

Fred Krow

>I am not sure you can differential temper an air hardening tool steel. The knife makers who heat treat with hardened edges and softer back spine will hold the blade spine in water and heat the edge with a torch to the transformation temperature and drop the blade into the water tank to complete the transformation from austenite to martensite.

Japanese swords are made with high carbon steel and use a special clay coating over the spine of the steel back to differential temper the hardness.

The air hardening A2 is more complex than simple carbon steels.

Ref: http://www.angelic.org/highlander/metallurgy/katanasteels.html

This give a more technical discussion from sword making references.

Regards,

Fred Krow

Besides...

Doug Reynolds

>One needs a complete set of chisels for rough carpentry work, another complete set for cabinetry, another complete set for fine cabinetry and, at least on back up set for when I can't seem to find the one size I was looking for.

Re: Besides...

Dan Donaldson

>You forgot the set that you need to put in the rack at the back of the bench for decoration and the set.........;-)

Re: Besides...

todd stock

>Display chisels? You must be talking about my Sorby Octagonal Handle chisels - damn pretty but won't hold an edge in anything harder than balsa.

Re: Besides...

Mark Meier (Ann Arbor, MI)

>Man, do I hear ya. I planed the Sorby logo off mine so I wouldn't be reminded of the company who took my money and ran off (presumably to buy more tin foil and boxwood for chisel making).

Mark

Re: Besides...

Jim in Burlington Ontario

>Don't forget about when you drop one. Need a replacement for that.

Re: Because

Martin, from Granbury

>I heard the same thing from Rob...he said they will hold an edge like nothing else on the market.

I currently have two cherries, but plan to trade up as soon as the new L-N's come out.

Re: Because

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Please let us know when you're ready to trade away the 2 Cherries.

Pam

Barr

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>Hi,

I tried a set of Barr's that belonged to Chris Becksvoort, I took a class with him in the may of 2002, they were very good.

I too was waiting for the LN's, Rob said they were coming quite some time ago, I beleive he and I had a connversation about them in 2002.

I was interested but at that time I went with the Two Cherries as it seemed LN did not have a product or a process established to produce these chisels.

Take care,

Jim

Re: LN chisels

Todd Hughes

>I have never heard of any knowledgable knife maker tempering a knife blade like that.I have seen guys that would take a Hardened blade and put it in water [or in a vice to act as a heat sink] EDGE down and then heat up the back. This way the back gets hot drawing it's temper thus getting softer while the cutting edge being in water doesn't get as hot and will stay harder.Don't know of any Western knife makers that would ever use water to harden a blade because of the danger of the steel cracking. I have used clay to give a diferential temper to hundereds of blades , it is an easy and about a fool proof method, but I stopped because it was time consuming with painting it on and then leaving the clay to dry.I found out by carefully manipulating the anealed blade in a hot fire edge down and watching that the back doesn't heat up enough to harden it while the cutting edge heats up to hardening color and then quench it in hot oil it accomplishes the same thing.Of course you still have to temper the blade but when done the back and tang will be soft since they were never hardened.

Chisels are actually much easier to temper diferentialy then a knife blade because you only have to heat up the cutting end leaving the socket or tang out of the heat and staying cooler while with a knife it is much easier if not carefull to get the back of the blade as hot as the cutting edge since it is close to the heat.I can see in a factory situation like at LN where the chisels would be evenly heated in ovens it would be hard to differentialy temper them with out taking special steps that makers in the past must have taken.....Todd

:-)

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>

Re: LN chisels

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>It is my understanding that they have produced chisels (those some have seen at shows) using one-off methods. They have constructed a production facility (whatever that means) for them, and very shortly will be producing some chisels through that, to test it. They hope to have some finished chisels soon. If all goes well, they will then begin serious production.

Re: Besides...

Russell Seaton

>I have the same complaints about my Stanley 750 chisels and my Hubbard, Stinson (?) Very Best Made chisel. The edges just roll up into a curl when they touch wood. The Stanley 750s were dull halfway through cutting some dovetails into the end of a 2x4. The VBM chisel edge rolled up paring a sliver off the side of a 1/4" oak dowel. That really perplexed me so I resharpened the chisel and tried it again. Edge rolled up again. I've come to doubt the comments about old tools being made of high quality steel.

Hey Todd...

Joe Rogers, Northern Virginia

>Do you think that re heat treatment would help ??

If the steel is actually any good could the edge retention be improved by proper hardening? Just a thought.JR

Not all old chisels

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I've had great performance from old chisels such brands as Addis, Dastra, Buck, Witherby, Swan, Herring, Jennings, etc. So I don't think it's valid to base your opinion on just a couple of brands.

Pam

Re: LN chisels

Fred Krow

>Todd,

You have a considerable amount of hands on experience with heat treating knife blades. You are correct with differential tempering by heating the exposed edge with the socket in a heat sink or water to hold back tempering temperature. This will work fine with simple high carbon steels, I am not certain it is controlled enough for A2 due to temperature of over 1000 F required for draw back to below Rc55.

I am certain you are familiar with Timken data sheets on hardening procedures:

http://www.timken.com/products/specialtysteel/engineering/tech_info/html/A2_Select_B.htm

http://www.timken.com/products/specialtysteel/engineering/tech_info/html/T-T%20102.htm

Thanks for posting your observations, have you ever worked with tool steels to differentially temper a through hardend blade?

Regards,

Fred

heat treating old chisels

Jack from Maine

>allow me to drift a bit here...it is possible that the old chisel in question was plenty hard at one time but the temper was loast due to grinding. I hear alot about chisels being ruined(turned blue) by overheating during grinding.Is it practical to retemper old chisels?---Jack

answered question, a comment

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>I was unaware of their choice of steel. A2 has superior toughness. However, it is much less tough than the CPM3V we experimented with, according to published data. We found a significant difference, but not overwhelming difference, in the 3V chisel edge toughness compared to Two Cherries. Based on this limited experience I would be wary whether an A2 chisel would resist chipping or crumbling greatly better than Two Cherries( and probably chisels of similar quality).

This all suggests an experiment by those contemplating buying the LN expecting better edge durability(I realize there could be other good reasons to buy LN chisels). An A2 hock plane iron could be ground at a bevel angle similar to a Two Cherries, or similar chisel, and the plane iron used for chopping some wood in some way comparitive to the chisel. It is very easy to compare durability with a simple 10X had lens. Edge crumbling or chipping can be easily seen.

I think I remember a comparison in Fine Woodworking and that A2 chisels were not remarkably superior. At least the differences were not, by themselves, sufficient to justify a large price differential.

I hope someone will provide an evaluation and comparison when these chisels become available. If A2 is indeed much beter than a Two Cherries then it will likely be as good or better than CPM 3V. Since A2 is more readily available, and easy to fabricate and heat treat, it could be the material of choice for home made chisels. But, that remains to be shown.

Now hold on.......

Steve Kubien

>Gee, I feel inadequate with my 5pc set of Blue Chips and 4pc set (from when I was a kid) of Fuller, fully ugly butt chisels. Yeah, the 2 Cherries, Barrs, and various Japanese chisels look really good but my current selection seems to be working alright.

Am I missing something here? Ok, I don't use them everyday for a living. I work mainly in softwoods and I still use a fair number of electrons. Will my woodworking improve by leaps and bounds by picking up a "high-end" set of chisels? Will I enjoy the process that much more?

There must be something to this? Can someone fill me in?

Thanks,

Steve Kubien

Ajax, Ontario

750's

Steve Kubien

>I thought 750's were some of the more sought after 'old' chisels becuse they work so well. I've heard the same thing about older Buck's, Swan's, Witherby's etc.

Have I been led astray?

Steve Kubien