Hand planing after machine jointing?

Re: Face planing on a jointer

John K in Hastings, MN

>Funny, mine takes out twist all the time, same with cup and bow.

If you think the jointer is just for the edge of the board, you're really missing it. Establishing a face that is flat starts the whole process of foursquaring, using hand or power tools. The jointer is also great for estabishing a square edge to that face. Tablesaw to rip to width, planer to thickness, just that easy.

You can't really use a 4" jointer for this, and even 6" is a stretch. I've got an 8" jointer which is good for this, and a 12" I'll be restoring this summer.

John

Re: Sprung joints are not necessary

William R. Duffield, on the Cohansey

>The issue with sprung joints is not the strength of the glue. No matter what kind of glue you use, panels lose moisture more quickly at the ends as the ambient humidity drops in the fall. Therefore, the panel is in tension across the grain at the ends and in compression closer to the center of the panel. This can cause the panel to split, beginning at one end or the other, at its weakest point. This weak point isn't going to be at a glue line, but somewhere else. A spring joint puts a little natural compression at the ends of the panel, minimizing the chance this will occur. If you put way too much spring in, there is the chance that the panel may split anyhow in the spring, when the humidity goes up, but that condition would probably be evidenced as soon as you took the clamps off the glue-up.

Re: Why bother?

William R. Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I don't have much problem working twisted stock with a power jointer, beyond the inherent waste and futility in trying to get long and/or wide flat boards out of it. I just set the boards with twist aside, and cut them up for short and narrow boards, which there are always lots of uses for, before trying to surface them.

Re: Why bother?

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Hello Adam,

I would like to point out that, at this juncture, I am not recommending a power jointer to anyone. I am just asking about a techique that was mentioned at a class.

Thanks for the list!

Don

Re: Face planing on a jointer

Mark Harrison -- in Sydney, Australia

>Absolutely worth it, if you have a Euro style 10" or better jointer or jointer/planer, or a Jet 12" for that matter. Especially when using recycled boards that are wide.

I don't use twisted boards on it, but I'm not sure that twisted boards are worth the effort. Well, more than a mild twist anyway.

Cupped boards are dead easy to face joint on a wide jointer and perfectly safe.

I hear what you say the safety though. I prefer the Euro guards.

Anyway, enough about electron killers :-)

Re: Sprung joints

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Hi Pam,

Coincidentally enough, the presenter was Kelly Mehler!

FWIW, he has sold the big shop that was seen in his videos, and has built a school facility. For those interested, here is a link to the Kelly Mehler web site.

Hmm...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>I'd have to work way more hours to pay for a L-N #8 than I did to pay for my 6" Delta jointer. And DustFoe mask. And it rolls out of the way in my half-of-a-garage shop. As far as that goes, my jointer was comparable in cost to most decent Stanleys on eBay.

Not that I wouldn't like to have the L-N #8, mind you...

Re: My 2 cents... (a little long)

Bob Rozaieski in Eastern PA

>To add to Chris's explanation about hand planing one side flat and then using the surface planer, I did just such a thing with some 10" wide boards recently after tiring of flattening and thicknessing a good number of BF entirely by hand. However, since they had a little cup to them, I just got the edges of the cupped side flat using jack/jointer/winding sticks and then passed the boards through the planer with the flattened edges down (taking light passes with the planer). When the top side was flattened, I then flipped it over and took the remaining bit off the side that I hand planed with a few light passes through the planer. Perfectly flat and an even thickness all around.

Understood

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Don, I'm changing the subject slightly, if you don't mind.

It happens around here sometimes, or so I've been told! :)

Adam

Thanks Everyone!

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Thanks everyone for a great hand v. power debate.

In my opinion, all of you have made convincing points, using passion and personal experiences. I've learned a lot from this thread:if I ever buy a jointer, and I may someday, I'll buy a wide one with a euro guard.

Its times like this when I am most proud to be in your midst. What a great group this is .

Thank you Ellis for allowing us to meet here.

Adam

Re: Sprung joints

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Funny. In the video he claimed to love machines, had piles of big old ones, Oliver and the like, very cool. When did he switch to teaching?

Pam

Re: Hmm...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Well, I only paid about $100 for my ECE jointer, it needs 4X4X24 (same for the box, but that's in a shed with all the others boxes) or so of storage space, eats no costly electricity, helps me keep some muscles, needs sharpening occasionally and loves it when I carress it and the piece.

And then there's everything William just said.

Pam

Kelly Mehler

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>He has moved out of the big old space in the video, and has built, IIRC, a 2500 sq. ft. shop and teaching facility on his own 10 acre property in or near Berea. This is very recent, I believe. I think he mentioned that he traded the monster Oliver bandsaw for a couple of Laguna 16" bandsaws.

He uses a mix of hand and power tools. Interestingly, he was very adamant about his doing all of his dovetails for his furniture for sale by hand (tails first, of course :-)). He also was very strong on using ONLY solid wood for furniture. When one fellow asked what was wrong for plywood for the backs of casework, I think he said, "Next thing you know, you will be using staples and fibreboard." Of course, advocating the sole use of solid wood, he had a lot to say about wood movement, and designing to compensate for it.

Re: Kelly Mehler

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sounds like a great weekend.

Pam

Well...

Scott in Douglassville, PA

>You paid more for your jointer than I did for mine plus my #30, I get the extra benefit of horizontal storage space on the beds when I'm not using it, I'd have to run it under load for about 5 hours a day to see a significant bump in my electric bill, and it gleams when I wax the beds. And I have plenty of other means to maintain my muscle tone.

Justify your tools however you want (as will I), but, while your methods may work nicely for you, there are those of us who hybridize our means. Doesn't make us wrong, does it?

OK! ;-)

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Just wanted to let you know where I was coming from!

Re: Well...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Of course it doesn't make you wrong, or me right. I use a tiny table saw, ancient bandsaw (very good though, Duro, 12" resaw), and just got a Barnes mortiser, to say nothing of the router, drill (which I hate), circular saw, and a couple of tiny sanders (Lowe's just paid me $2.50 to buy their Porter Cable square thing).

So I'm not pure, not even trying to be; but I do think the power jointer and power planer are the most disposable power tools in the average shop. I don't even like using them, think they're a waste of money and space, especially hate the snipe, dust, finicky adjustments, boring gradual feeding process, and finger danger. This opinion was formed after much use of several versions at the community college.

Pam

Agree, Sprung joints are not necessary

Russell Seaton

>I say finish the board properly, including the end grain, and let the glue keep the boards together. I would be much more worried about springing the board too much and having the boards delaminate in the middle than I would ever be worried about the unsprung boards coming apart at the ends from drying through the end grain. Plane the boards nice and smooth and straight, glue and clamp them, and use them.

Sprung joints

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Russell, I contend that sprung joints are one of the techniques that separate table tops into examples of excellent craftsmanship and the merely good, into furniture that stands a chance of lasting for hundreds of years and furniture that is less likely to last hundreds of years.

Pam

Re: Agree, Sprung joints are not necessary

William R. Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I'm not talking about delamination at the glue line. The issue is checking, anywhere within the boards. Tensile forces of unsprung boards are concentrated very strongly at the ends. Any weakness concentrates the force at a single point. From there, just like in a drying log, the end check propagates. Tensile forces in sprung boards are, on the other hand, distributed over a much greater area. The force per inch² of cross section of the board is therefore much less.

You should be able to calculate the optimal amount of spring to put into each board, from the width of the board, the expected seasonal change in MC for the piece's expected location, and the coefficient of expansion of that particular species. I would suggest putting a total spring of about half the calculated value in each board, split evenly between the two edges. Just disregard the exposed outside edges, since it is unimportant whether they curve over the seasons. Well finished ends should decrease the internal swing in MC, but will not remove it completely, unless you are finishing with epoxy and glass.

Re: Well...

Dale Stansbery

>Pam, the Barnes Mortiser doesn't count as a power tool dose it? I have a type 4 stored away that I want to get cleaned up and in service one of theses days. I'd be interested in a future post on your experience with yours. Here are a couple links to info on the Barnes.

http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/gallery/267-mortise.html

http://www.tooltimer.com/barnesmort.html

Re: Hmm...

Michael Campbell

>> As far as that goes, my jointer was comparable in cost to most decent Stanleys on eBay.

Wow, I have gotten a decent #8 jointer for $83 on ebay. I see them going all the time for < $100. (Granted, those take some cleaning, but I haven't gotten an ebay plane yet that after an hour of cleaning/tuning, just didn't work very well.)

Re: Sprung joints

Scott Post

>I think that's a little strong for something that is only a theory. The only way we would be able to know whether this is truth or theory is if we knew which 100+ year old joints were sprung and which weren't and evaluate whether one had better longevity. Of course we can't do that so it remains just a theory rather than a separator of excellence from mediocrity.

Personally, I have trouble believing that intentionally building stress into a joint is a good thing, but that's just my theory.

Re: Barnes mortiser *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Wow, thank you so much for those links, Dale, they're great. BTW, you can find an old catalog on the Old Machines site (http://www.oldwwmachines.com), as well as a couple of more photos.

My Barnes (probably a Type 3) had been modified to use a hollow chisels, thus motorized. I just picked this up last weekend, so I haven't had a chance yet to convert it back, thus it's still a power tool. However, I did find a set of the old chisels on ebay, which pleased me to no end; so as soon as I can figure out how to convert it back, I will.

Pam


old chisels on ebay

Re: Sprung joints

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Ah, now, no fair extremizing my contention, I said excellent from merely good, the word mediocrity was never mentioned.

I'd suggest that the old manuals would have been likely to have mentioned sprung joints, don't think it's a modern invention, must be someone here who's read Moxon. Adam?

Pam