Hand planing after machine jointing?

Re: Hand planing after machine jointing?

Scott Post

>It depends on my mood and the state of tune of my power jointer. I mix and match my woodworking: some projects are mostly power tool, some mostly handtool, and some 100% hand tool (no such thing as a 100% power tool project).

If I'm in "mostly power tool" mode and the jointer knives are a little dull or one knife is a little high and I get ripples I'll make a pass with a jointer plane. Dull knives don't cut the wood nicely - they beat it into submission. When this happens I'm afraid the burnished surface won't allow good glue penetration and a plane is just the ticket.

Re: Hand planing after machine jointing?

R.J.Whelan

>Don .... someone once showed me a machine jointed edge under magnification and then again after a couple of light passes with a well tuned #7; the difference was significant ... rj

Yes, it's also...

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>the only way I know to make the ends a little tighter than the middle.

Best, Ted

Re: Hand planing after machine jointing?

Jeff Tapke

>RJ, you say the difference was significant, but not in which direction?? which turned out better?

Re: Hand planing after machine jointing?

Verne Mattson, Northeast NJ

>I always use my jointer planes (Record #7 and C&W jointer) after the powered jointer. I've never gotten really good edges off my jointer - but with handplanes I can make joints virtually invisible with proper grain matching.

So I use my powered jointer to get edges in the ballpark, then fine tune with handplanes.

Re: Sprung joints

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Actually, this can be done on the machine. Kelly Mehler shows how in his "Build a Shaker Table" video. I'd describe it, but it involves resetting the jointer tables, jigs, and starting the jointing in from the end a bit, much better to see it. Plus, I might get it wrong, haven't personally done this.

Pam

Re: I do the very same thing........

Dale Lenz - Tahlequah, OK

>with my Record or Bailey, I don't have any C&W planes, YET(!). I need to empty my credit card and drive over to see Larry one of these days......Dale

proof in the pudding

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>The relevant question is whether the joint will successfully glue(wood will fail). It would be hard to find a commercial shop that hand planned joints off a jointer. So, it is hard to argue that there is any practical difference between the options. By far the determining factor in joint strength is how well the surfaces align and clamping pressure. The technique by which one can most successfull make straight edges is "best". With a few minutes training anyone can make a successful joint with a powered jointer. Fewer will be successful with a hand plane, but it must be satisfying for those that can.

Yes, I agree

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>I've done it, but it's so much simpler to do by hand.

Just grab a #7 or #8, take a few swipes full length to reach total contact. Then a couple swipes in the middle, the second longer than the first, then one more full length.

Takes much longer to type than do.

Best, Ted

Re: Sprung joints

William R. Duffield, on the Cohansey

>I've done it on a power jointer too, but the method I use requires fiddling with the height of the outfeed table, and the adjustment is strongly dependent on the length of the boards you are springing. I prefer to keep my outfeed table locked even with the height of the blades, and prefer to use my L-N #7 for springing panel joints. In addition to getting a better surface for gluing, it's quicker, and I can control the amount of spring better. Thus, the power jointer doesn't go out of adjustment, and I don't have to worry about it sniping or unintentionally tapering an edge when using it.

What is really impressive is watching and listening to someone as skilled as Adam Cherubini do it with a wooden jointer. The sound of the blade cutting the wood, and the shape of the shavings tell you when he has the spring right, without the need to check all the joints visually.

Another one.

Andrew F in Australia

>I was trained to do this, never done it any differently.

For all the reasons mentioned in other posts.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Sprung joints

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I certainly agree, much easier to leave the tables locked once they're adjusted and avoid sniping. I never use a power jointer except in school projects, not that I'm so great as Adam; but hand jointing is so easy and so much fun. That's interesting about Adam's shavings informing when the spring's right. I tend to take very short localized shavings rather than long, something about adjusting pressure on the plane when coming up out of the low point I don't have right yet.

However, it is possible with a power jointer.

Pam

Re: Yes, I agree

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Ted, I was just responding to your "the only way I know to make the ends a little tighter than the middle", which I understood to be describing a sprung joint. My apologies if I got this wrong.

Pam

No, you were right...I misspoke

Ted Owen, Pittsburgh

>

Why bother?

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Don,

If you are going to move the board from the jointer to a real work bench where you can plane its edge, why use the power jointer at all? Seems pretty pointless at that point.

Of all power tools, the power jointer is the least worthwhile. Anything it can do, you can do faster, better, or easier (though not necessarily all three) with a hand plane.

A couple reasons why power jointers stink:

1) its the #1 home shop finger eater

2) hard to work wide heavy stock

3) ridiculously hard to work twisted stock

4) Too many blades to sharpen and tune

5) dangerous when working non-straight edged stock

6) Match planing wide, long stock all but impossible

Adam

Except what it does MUCH faster

John K in Hastings, MN

>and better.

Face jointing is the first. A jointer can in 1-3 passes accomplish what would take half an hour with winding sticks, a scrub plane, and a jointer.

It gives you glue-ready joints in a single pass for straight lumber, several passes if not.

An 8" jointer with normal tables can easily straighten an 8' board. A #8 jointer plane can't, as evidenced by the thread above about springing the joint. In general, you can straighten something about twice the length of your bed. This isn't a big deal if you are dealing with shorter pieces.

John

Re: Except what it does MUCH faster

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Takes a lot longer if you're springing the joint, you have to readjust the tables, use jigs, be very careful about where you start the cutting, then adjust the blades back. And when you sharpen the knives you have to be a lot more careful about where you put them back.

Oh, yes, and then there are all the extra hours you have to work to pay for it, to say nothing of the dust collection system and larger shop.

Pam

I would agree with you 100% if

Frank Mutchler

>my jointer were a 6" Delta (which I recently replaced). All the points you make fit that jointer to a 'T' and that's why I used it less & less as I developed skill with hand planes.

1) its the #1 home shop finger eater

The European style guards pretty much eliminate this. I think I'd have to try pretty hard to get my fingers exposed to the knives on my jointer.

2) hard to work wide heavy stock

Depends on the bed of the jointer and whether or not you use infeed/outfeed table extensions

3) ridiculously hard to work twisted stock

I agree....either way ;>)

4) Too many blades to sharpen and tune

Not with disposables.

5) dangerous when working non-straight edged stock

Not sure I understand what you mean here.

6) Match planing wide, long stock all but impossible

Depends on width of the jointer, right?

The jointer I have now is nothing like my former 6" Delta. It has the European style guard and not many of my 4/4 boards exceed 12" in width. The replacement of dull knives is still a hassle but I'm ordering an Esta system that will eliminate that ordeal as well.

Face planing on a jointer

Adam Cherubini, NJ

>Hi John,

Probably worthwhile to say, and please correct me if I'm wrong:

Jointers aren't designed to remove twist from a board. The jointers with which I am familiar have safety guards that prevent this. There may be new models I'm not familiar with.

More, to some extent, planing out twist is a fool's errand. Its there for a reason and making the stock thinner in that region by severing the only continuous wood fibers, will simply result in a twist of greater magnitude later.

My surface planes work pretty fast, not 3 passes fast, but pretty fast. Especially when you consider I don't have to sand after using them.

All said, I appreciate your comments, and hope others are listening in. You've raised an important issue I'd like to hear more about. I know guys push boards' faces across their jointers. Is it really a good idea? Is it safe? Is it really necessary? In any case, this isn't a good argument for the relevance of this pink elephant.

Adam

My 2 cents... (a little long)

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>This is an interesting topic... I have seen discussions on jointer vs no jointer on the other side.

First to answer your question: Yes, I would use a hand plane after a power jointer for the reasons already mentioned. Now using a jointer to get an edge close to desired final condition is cool, but with a plane you have much better control over your final edge.

But I want to detour a bit into perhaps a related subject.

First here's my opinion:

You don't need a (power) jointer. A controversial position, one that might get me dipped in a vat of hot-boiling oil on the other side (and perhaps even over here).

When I started in woodworking (as a hobby) over a little over two years ago, I didn't have a clue. I bought S4S wood at home center stores and put a few things together. I also bought and read ALOT of books and quickly realized that S4S is not the best way to go to make high-quality furniture.

Now a number of books and articles commented that a jointer is an important piece of machinery. Yet some of these same articles/books all gave alternate solutions to solving the problems that a jointer is meant to handle: edge-jointing, face-jointing, and sometimes, rabbets. Andy Rae has mentioned a number of times how one can flatten/thickness boards with hand planes and a power planer relatively quickly. I use that technique almost exclusively for my work and everytime I look at a jointer in a catalog, I just turn the page.

Now I HAVE had a power jointer in the past. About 14 months ago, I bought a Delta benchtop model. I tried it out, and noticed that it did was it supposed to do, flatten, edge, etc. However, I decided that it was not worth the noise, danger, and money to keep that one. So I returned it. In addition, I ruled out a larger jointer since I am basically at capacity in my shop and my floor really can't handle the weight of a larger jointer.

I already mentioned Rae's method of flattening which is simply flattening one side with a hand plane and then sending it through the planer with the flat side down until both sides are dressed. Real simple and very safe, and for me at least, I get good results. For edge-jointing, I use a number of methods. I will use my table saw to rip the edge close to straight, then I either use hand planes or I use my router table to get a straight edge. A number of sources have stated that one may get a much better edge with a router table than with a jointer. On top of that it seems to be much safer. Even after using the router, I still take a pass or two with a plane.

As I said, no jointer is a controversial position, but after reading some comments here and taking into account some of my parameters, I think it's the right choice for me. That's what works for me...For other people who knows...

:)

disagree with twist statements

Bill Tindall, E. TN

>First let me state my strong predjudice for the power jointer. I would give up my table saw before parting with the power jointer's many useful and productive functions- preparing glue edges, squaring big panels, making tapers, "planning" knarley(spelling??) surfaces, and flattening faces including twist prior to power planning. And thankfully, none of these operations require much skill and experience. I will never learn all the skills I need to build all the things I want to build. The power jointer removes some of the what I consider boreing obstacles on the path to fine furniture. This is not an inferior approach to fine furniture, just different.

To remove twist I use a push stick and push pad, balance the board to "average" its flatness on the bed and run it by the knives. After 2-3 passes it is flat. A trip to the power planner and I am ready to glue flat panels. Because the boards are very flat they glue up flat and require little sanding with an air driven sander(or hand sanding and/or planning if the panels are small). These operations are not where I prefer to spend my "quality" shop time, so I take advantage of the machine's productivity. It gives me time to learn to turn spheres that look spherical on the end of spindles for a spool bed, but that is another story........

As far as twist returning after flattening, I have not experienced this problem in glued up panels, and I have glued a lot of panels.

Re: My 2 cents... (a little long)

Davy

>The problem is easily solved for me by not having the space or the money for all the power tools. It's hand jointed surfaces or buy s4s for me. I could afford a cheap benchtop, but think I could just do better with my handtools and much safer. Being a piano player, I'm paranoid about maiming fingers.

Same for me...

Christopher Fitch @ Memphis

>... I'm paranoid about my fingers since I type with them all day long writing software.

Sprung joints are not necessary

John K in Hastings, MN

>anyway. Modern glues, clamps- the glue joint is stronger than the wood anyway.

John