Anyone tried this LV sharpen sys yet? *LINK*

Re: Particle-o-Matic

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I think most of the concerns about mess will be found amongst people who have newly acquired the machine and are establishing initial geometries, probably on a lot of tools in a short period of time.

Everything you say about heat and grit is correct (and I do wear a respirator when a lot of grinding is going to take place for major geometry changes). However, I think you will soon find that you have all your chisels and blades right at the geometry you wish for them, and that after that, the maintainence of those blades will not only be exceeding quick, but result in most minimal grit. There have been days where I have renewed the edge on dozens of blades and not had any grit, strewn or airborn, to speak of.

Specifically with respect to heat, this occurs almost solely when you are using too fine a sandpaper for the job, the sandpaper is worn, and/or you are pressing too hard. For multiple serious geometry changes, it is actually helpful to set up a disk with sandpaper even coarser than the 80x disks that come with the machine. Going to a 60 or even better a 46 grit paper will just blast the metal away before significant heat can built up, and allow you to then go through the "finer" grits quickly and efficiently. Woodturners regularly use 46 grit grinding wheels for rapid major geometry changes or initial establishment. So IME there is no inherent fault, or even weakness in the system, but some may find that there needs will best be met by setting up a platter with something coarser than comes from LV. Frankly, I think that once you get your initial geometries where you want them, you'll soon grow to appreciate the sharpening system even more.

As for bubbles, I very rarely have any problem with this. I try to put the disks on the platters in a warm environment, and I bow them in the middle like a taco, and apply them across the diameter of the disk first and then spread them out from there. I also use a vener roller to go over them, but this is more for adherance than to remove bubbles. If nothing else works, use the old body shop technique for applying decals, etc. Wet the platter liberally with water, and then apply the disk, rolling the water (and any trapped air bubbles out to the edges. The water will prevent premature adhesion and allow the bubbles to be worked out with the water.

And while I don't find the sharpening system to be good for flattening backs, particularly plane blades where one wants the entire back flattened, I wouldn't say it can't be used for that purpose. Actually I have an idea for a jig that will make the LVPSS fairly effective for flattening backs, but just haven't gotten around to suggesting it to Rob yet.

Again, I could have any sharpening system I wanted, and indeed have tried almost every commercial system that's been put forward. For the bevels of plane blades and chisels, there is nothing I'd rather use.

Sharpening Sequence?

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Lyn,

I believe you have written that you flatten/polish the backs of your plane irons on water stones first. I presume that you then proceed to the LVPSS for the bevel. At what point or points in the procedure do you remove the wire edge(s) produced by the LVPSS, and how do you do so?

Thanks,

Don

Re: Particle-o-Matic

Mark Meier (Ann Arbor, MI)

>Thanks for your comments. I'll try your suggestions for getting the disk flat on the platter. I've been doing it edge first and perhaps that's the problem. Both your suggestions are interesting and I'm eager to get that issue behind me. I have to ask -- doesn't putting water down affect the adhesion? Or does it all just get squeezed out and then isn't an issue?

There is no doubt the main mess comes from the initial griding. I'll have to try some lower grits to get that working faster. I've still got quite a number of bevels to accuratly set.

Mark

Re: Particle-o-Matic

Thom Trail, Powder Springs, GA

>You said: 'particularly plane blades where one wants the entire back flattened'. Do you really flatten the entire back? I think you mean only to the slot but, even that seems excessive. I've only ever flattened the first 1/4 inch or so.

Could you elaborate please?

Thanks,

Thom

Re: Sharpening Sequence?

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Hi Don,

There are several things I may do depending on the condition of the back and the need, if any, to change the geometry of an existing blade after the back has been flattened and polished.

With a new blade, I usually establish the general geometry, i.e, bevel angle, prior to flattening the back. Most of the time, I find the next finer abrasive does a fairly good job removing the "wire" ridge of the earlier one, but if it doesn't, I just wipe the back on the unmoving platter. The edge removes very quickly and easily this way, and of course, the platters themselves are very flat. By radially wiping on the unrotating platter, I keep the back scratches parallel to the blade length, which I find preferable both for the reasons Leonard Lee mentions and because this is the direction of greatest registration surface that helps insure the blade edge will be flat to platter.

For backs that have already been flattened and polished, and that require major regrinds (perhaps to change geometry or to remove a huge nick), I always first see if the next finer abrasive largely removes or at least diminishes the ridge (which it often does), but if this doesn't happen, then I wipe the back on a leather strop (actually, I just use the leather banded wheel on the Tormek with the motor stopped).

For maintanence of an existing bevel where the edge is only being refined, I usually just use my thumb, pushed away from the edge.

I always end each bevel sharpening session with either a brief polish of the back on a stationary platter fitted with .5 micron abrasive (which is my final bevel maintainance abrasive), or if I already have it set up, I'll run the blade a few times over my Shapton 12000 stone.

Re: Particle-o-Matic

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Yes, the water all gets squeezed out and then adhesion is normal. I suppose it is possible there is some PSA adhesives don't like it, but should they be a problem you can just pull it off and dry it quick with compressed air, and be no worse for the attempt.

I use a what is called a J veneer roller. It is fairly inexpensive, sturdy, lets you apply a lot of force, and can be used of a lot of other purposes like applying laminate and wood veneers. I believe I got mine from Woodworkers supply.

The water technique is most valuable with the softer and floppier fine grit papers, like making up your own platters from 5 and.5 micron PSA sheets. I don't actually use it very often though, as warm surfaces (and by this I mean just 75-85 degrees), the Taco technique of application, and the veneer roller usually does the job just fine.

If all else fails, you can use a razor blade and make a small slit in the bubble. Not the perfect solution, but usually adequate.

I must admit that when I first got the earlier model of the machine, I immediately sat down and sharpened about 30 chisels and made a fair amount of mess. And yes, there is a stripe that has developed along the wall where my sharpeners are kept, though this more from honing compounds than grit.

As an aside, it definitely pays to obtain one of the crepe sticks for cleaning you coarser grit platters, and to use cheap tissue or towels with alcohol to clean the finer grit platters. Of course, they will make an even bigger mess on your wall. If you decide to keep your sharpener in one location, you might want to consider the old woodturners trick of either permanently or temporarily placing Kitchen Board on the wall behind the sharpener. This slick, hard surfaced, white colored hardboard is more resistant to taking on grit and usually can be cleaned up easily with a wet papertowel.

Re: Particle-o-Matic

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>How much of the back you flatten is a matter of how the blade is bedded, whether you use a back bevel, whether a chip breaker is employed, and your technique for ongoing back maintainance.

Taken roughly in order. Ideally, one wants to have the blade be flat over the surface that is bedded. This means that on a bevel down blade, you want the back to be flat over that bedding surface, and on a bevel up blade, you want the front to be flat over the bedding surface (this isn't talked about much, but yes, I flatten the fronts on my bevel down planes). Of course, one also needs thed bedding surface to be flat as well, so I also make sure my frogs, etc. are optimally flat. This prevents torsional stress from being induced in the plane body (and blade edge), and optimizes damping.

Much the same thing goes for bevel down blades and a chip breaker. You want optimal mating between all contact areas between the blade and chip breaker. This means more of the blade is flattened, than is required to ensure refined areason both sides of the edge.

Of course you don't need much of an area flattened and refined behind the blade edge for edge sharpness, and when using a back bevel, if the other factors were not important, you really wouldn't need to "flatten" anything more than the back bevel itself.

Now if you flatten your blades by working them side to side on a stone, partial flattening is not that awkward and difficult to maintain. However, I have never liked the side to side method as there is less registration surface during flattening which make it harder to keep the blade flat to the "stone" or platter, and working the smaller area will more rapidly dish a softer surface like a waterstone. There is also the Leonard Lee argument that it is better to have the fine grooves left by even the finest of abrasives be perpendicular to the cutting edge, rather than parallel.

So aside from the earlier factors I discussed, II find it easiest to maintain flatness during flattening by being able to have the entire surface of the blade be in contact with the abrasive stone, platter, etc. Frankly, there have been too many occasions when a less than fully flattened back was being worked when I ended up running up over the "higher" unflattened area and I ended up dubbing the leading edge of the blade. The only thing to do then is to bevel grind back than area to obtain a flat surface again. Thus, I just find it a lot easier to lay the entire blade area down on the abrasive surface and work it back and forth longitudinally. Now with smaller blades, there is no reason that can't be done on Lee Valley Power Sharpening System platters, but for large plane blades, and to preserve the effective life of the somewhat expensive abrasive disks, I prefer doing this on a waterstone (and maybe in the future, lapping with diamond powder on a lapping plate) .