Bridge City LA Smoother *LINK*

The power of spin.

Bob Hackett

>Sounds like they need to replace some of those spin doctors with real woodworkers.I know they`re on the west coast but it sounds like they have thier ivory tower planted firmly in downtown Washington DC.

One of the easiest ways to alienate your customer is to insult thier intelligence.From what Lyn M. said they seem to be doing an excellent job of just that.I wonder who these guys think they`re targeting with this tripe?

Mainely,Bob-who`s getting ready to do some double dovetails in the basement shop with Mick D`s help.I guess I can set up the cryo tank first and get that out of the way.

What kind of gloves do you folks use to fish your blades out of that liquid nitrogen?I`m looking for both dexterity and longevity here.

Re: The power of spin. *LINK*

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>"Fine Woodworking" joined in.

Pam


Tools and Woodworking 2001 excerpt

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>That was exactly why I too was angry Paul. They were attempting to add a mystique to common features and it is insulting to the intelligence of anyone who's ancestors didn't come out of the primeval swamp yesterday. On the other hand it is a bit on the humerous side to consider that the add probably has exactly the opposite effect they hoped it would have. Truly poetic justice.

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Scott Post

>I don't really think that ad copy is hurting them. Keep in mind that you and I aren't their target customers. There are people out there with large expendible incomes who want absolutely beautiful tools for their shelves. The use of limited editions, club memberships, and over the top hyperbole is the exactly what that consumer desires.

I think that ad is a win-win for everyone. It serves up exactly what Bridge City's customers are interested in and at the same time provides amusement for the rest of us.

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Lloyd Robins

>That is true, but I used to occasionally be able to afford a few things from BCT, but now they have completely gone off the deep end. I have one of their scratch awls, a bevel, and a precision straight edge, but now I just grimace when I look at their tools, as the pricing is extremely high. Oh well, we are very fortunate to have high quality manufactures to go to instead of BCT.

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Todd Hughes

>I enjoyed reading the add , thought it was very funny. Think only thing missing would have been if they said the blade was made by a 80 year old Japanese Blacksmith standing in a hole useing purple steel and iron made out of antique tire chains! Think they might be missing out on a big share of the market of people that seem to "buy" this stuff.

Tools and copy like this are aimed at people with money that don't know much about what they buy and WANT to over pay for what they buy and to believe what they are getting is somthing real special that not many other people have.By spending this money and believing this hype they boost thier egos thinking they are getting the best there is.Is easy to have people believe this hype because they WANT to believe it. Imagine most buyers of this plane if offered the same plane priced at $70 would not buy it......Todd

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Dave Anderson Chester, NH

>You are probably right on the money Todd. It's the PT Barnum effect. Or as one of my friends cynically used to paraphrase an old Abraham Lincoln quote, "You can fool all of the people some of the time, or fool some of the people all of the time....and that's usually sufficient"

Re: Bad Ad Copy / Good Ad Copy

Barb Siddiqui - Wenatchee, WA

>Those descriptions are common in past LV catalogs. Does anyone remember the one a few years ago where Mr. Lee Sr. described some little gizmo (wish I could remember what) that his R&D dept. spent months gearing up for, only to find out it was commonly available in a hardware store for fifteen cents?! He pictured the item, said it would soon be discontinued, and if anyone felt sorry for them you could order it for a quarter or something, but it would be cheaper to buy it at a hardware store? Made me love the company more than anything...what a guy! (A tough act to follow, Rob, but you're doing a great job.)

-Barb S.

Amazing what you can do when...

Bob Hackett

>you have access to CNC equipment.Those things can take a guy that doesn`t know one end of the machine from the other and make it look as though he walks on water as a machinist.The real machinists call those folks tool tenders.All they do is feed the machine stock,check the parts it spits out and change the bit when it gets dull.Some of them even have to call someone else if something goes wrong.They even get the program from some other source most times.They`re closer to computer geeks than they are to machinists .My youngest brother is a graduate apprentice machinist(a REAL machinist) and he loves CNC.It allows him to triple his reading time,and get paid for it.

Most anybody with a PC and afew thou burning a hole in thier pocket could set up a CNC milling station to turn out the SS base for a Bridge City block plane and never touch anything but a touch screen or keyboard once the stock is clamped in place.For someone who deals with "the craftsmanship of risk"on a regular basis,there`s absolutely zero magic involved in the whiz-bang cool tools that BC puts out.They`re strictly eyecandy,thus the need for spin.

Now if there was just a craftsman,his bench and his tools involved,that would be an entirely different story.I`m highly impressed by what comes out of the shops of folks like Mick and some of the other folks both here and on the Pond.It`s inspiring to know just a skilled pair of hands and a sharp eye can make tools that rival or exceed what the spin doctors are passing off as magic.The difference is,the folks here get by with handtools and dedication instead of $500,000+ of computer controlled machine tools.

Want to see REAL magic?Check the archives either here or for Badger Pond.As far as I`m concerned the decendants of Merlin are alive and well and hang out here.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Amazing what you can do when...

Rob Lee

>Bob -

There's a lot of truth in what you say...BUT...it takes a good manual machinist to program/set-up CNC equipment. I'd rather teach a machinist programming, than teach a programmer machining...

At Veritas - our machine shop staff are part of the design process - no point in designing things that can't be made easily, or efficiently...no matter what the CAD system shows...

Cheers -

Rob

Cheers -

Rob

I`m not surprised you have real machinists

Bob Hackett

>It was the folks who buy the CNC machine centers and then hire someone like my brother to ride herd on 6-8 people who are only "tool tenders"that I was talking about.Stand those folks in front of a Bridgeport milling machine or a Leblonde lathe and they wouldn`t know which dial did what.

If your folks program thier machines,know the limitations of available tooling and can handle manual machines then they need to be in on the design end of things.Your company seems to be the exception to the rule nowadays,and with any luck(on our part)that will continue.

The hiring of less skilled workers to trim the bottom line is not a new thing by any means.I worked a a "leadman"in the centerless grinding dept. of NY Twistdrill in my younger days.There were 12 machines and 12 operators.I taught the operators how to do everything from reading a mirometer to loading blanks into the machine.When the parts came up out of tolerance and simple adjustment of the handwheel didn`t cure the problem,they called me.If the machine jammed,they called me.When a new setup needed to be made,they called me.The operators babysat the machines.I tore them down,got them running again,and kept them running because I understood what they did and how to fix them.The company hired females and recent arrivals to the US because the worked far cheaper than people such as myself.All they needed to know was where to load the blanks, which marks the mic was supposed to line up on,and which button to hit before running to get me when thing went south.Most of the CNC "machinists" I`ve seen lately remind me of those folks at the drill co.

Rob,in my mind you folks are the bar none best as far as value for money when it comes to new tools.I could say the same thing as far as customer service and truth in advertising goes.I feel this stems from the fact that you honestly care about the folks who use your products.The fact that you are constantly listening to us and developing tools that are inovative and fill realworld needs rather than just copying discontinued tools from the past says this loud and clear.In my nightmares,one of the faceless conglomerates conducts a hostile takeover of you folks and we lose all that,ending up with a clone of one of the eyecandy corporations.I hope I never live to see that day.It would be a terrible loss to woodworking.

Now if I could just talk you into expanding your line to include more metalworking.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Amazing what you can do when...

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Our neighbor, Russ, in Waltham, a Boston suburb, was a precision machinist who bought into CNC, did a lot of one-off's for MIT and the like. We became friends, so I took a look at a lot of CNC, gave him some advice on new computers, and the like. As a software developer, CNC seemed intuitively obvious, I understood it immediately. Not that I had any illusions about actually doing that work effectively, he knew an extraordinary amount about materials, how to use the actual cutting machine (things like how to take intersecting curved cuts so the machine could do it without botching the job), and the like. I'm just confirming that CNC is a fairly simplistic programming language.

Pam

PS We left Boston in late '91, so this info is very dated.

Re: Amazing what you can do when...

paul womack

>I'm just confirming that CNC is a fairly simplistic programming language.

Yep. Programming the machine to do what you want is done in a more or less straightforward fashion.

Working out what you want the machine to do - that's the hard part.

BugBear (merely emphasising what everybody else is saying in this thread)

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

John Economaki

>My name is John Economaki -- I am the founder of Bridge City Tool Works, the author of the copy that is the subject of these posts and the designer of the CT-11 low angle smoothing plane.

I am struggling to find the dignity of this thread but to anybody who wishes to engage in an earnest and meaningful dialog regarding the way we communicate with our customers, our manufacturing techniques or any other matter regarding Bridge City Tool Works tools, my email address is john@bridgecitytools.com and/or my direct line is 503-282-6997 x282.

To the gentleman who accused me of writing �half-truths� I invite you to confront me direct with your comments by calling me at the number listed above.

Regards,

John Economaki

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Don Thompson, Cutler Ridge, South of Miami FL

>Mr. Economaki, I encourage you to attempt to engage in a meaningful discussion of your plane, and of your ad copy, here in an open forum.

Keep in mind that those posts which may have offended you, or seemed undignified, were addressed, in your absence, to what was perceived as a faceless corporate entity.

-----------------------

Now, does anyone here have a question for Mr. Economaki?

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Steve Knight

>If you can't handle the fire here you may be in trouble. People here can and may be your customers and I am sure they want you to stand up for yourself. We all have to be held accountable for what we say except politicians (G)

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Ted Owen, Moderator

>Hi, John--

Thanks for posting your message. It sounds as if you are surprised by the reaction of some to your advertising. I have read all the messages, as I always do here, and have left them intact, as I almost always do. They represent legitimate discussion of your products and advertising and do not constitute, in my opinion, personal attack which would violate our forum rules.

If you wish the discussion to continue via email only, feel free to ask our WC participants. But I am not going to mandate that, so long as discussion remains civil and on topic.

Or you might consider what you read here to be valuable--yet free--advice from members of your target market.

Congratulations on your great products. And Happy New Year.

Best, Ted,

Moderator

Training real machinists

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>I think the loss of skill in machining is turning into a self-feeding spiral -- our younger son took Intro to Machining at the local community college but did not continue, because the instructor was unable (!) to answer questions about setting up his great-uncle's lathe, which is a basic little prewar South Bend-type (not sure of make) lathe. If he'd asked questions about CNC machines, the instructor could have talked for quite some time, but knew nothing about operation of a basic lathe. Said son had to teach himself.

Manufacturing - maybe a bit over the top

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>As is the loss of manufacturing jobs in general. If this keeps up, pretty soon we'll all be salesmen or unemployed, nothing much else left to do. The now 3rd world will then be justified in offing us, as we will do nothing particularly useful.

Pam, who realizes this may be a bit over the top, just thoughts for a gloomy New Year's Day

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Brian

>Why all the sour grapes? I have quite a few Bridge City tools, and enjoy every one of them. The BC LA Smoother is not only one of the finest planes I own, but the most beautiful to look at. Of the app. 14 planes I own, this one is the finest.

Is it expensive? Yes. Is it neceswsary? No

Is it worth the money? For me and many others it is. This is how I ocasionaly treat my self for 54 years of hard work.

I for one am very appreciative that people like John and a small handfull of others make beautiful as well as super precision woodworking tools.

Welcome to the forum!

John Truxell-Svenson (jvs)

>I don't think anyone said that they were not good tools, but advertising copy as goofy and inane as that is just begging for a little ribbing.




/jvs

The two "best" tools

Brian, Boothbay Harbor

>It is amazing the amount of input that a discussion of a particular tool will generate and imho most of it is only important to the owner of that particular tool. That is not to say much is learned here when talking about the pro's and con's of a particular tool.

Advertising is a medium to get your attention and look closer at a product. From dish detergent to automobiles they all say "using this product will make you a better person in some way" and I think we all know that is not true.

I would comment that I don't believe anyone paying $800.00 for a plane will be fooled. It's just my guess that people who can afford that have got into that position by making some pretty good decisions about how to spend their money.

In my years of furniture making I have never had a customer jump back from a piece and say "WOW, that table looks like it was worked on with a old Stanley # 1 and I'm really impressed". The finished product is all that matters to the one paying the bill.

I always believed the two best tools are:

1. The one between your ears

2. The one in your hand actually making something.

Just my .02 cents towards a new tool

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Hello Brian, I hope you will find this a place worthy of your continued presence. I'm sure many of us will be most pleased to hear continuing reports from someone who also regularly puts BCT products to use.

I just reread about two thirds of this BCT thread, including my own comments. Frankly, I didn't find anywhere within them anything that I would define as "sour grapes." Rather, I saw knowledgable tool users taking offense at marketing copy that demeaned their intelligence and served to deceive uninformed potential purchasers of the production and performance characteristics of the BCT tools relative to others. There are certainly dozens, and likely hundreds of persons on this very forum who have filed and banged together their own well fitting dovetails following the excellent and easily understood directions from folks like Shepherd and others. It isn't an incredibly difficult nor magical task, we know that from direct experience or the experience of our friends, and thus copy such as John puts forward is revealed as deceptive if not offensive.

I think many of us admire the beauty of the BCT offerings, most admire the craftsmanship, and many of us appreciate the genuine innovations John has brought to us. I have well over a dozen of his tools, and some do something just a little different than anything else commercially available, some offer excellent performance combined with outstanding beauty, and some, though very pretty, really don't work any better or even as well as some much less expensive alternatives.

What I saw in this thread, was both amusement and disdain for his marketing practices and his advertising copy. I, for one, retain that disdain; it has led to me no longer purchasing his tools, even the ones I have an interest in, and my disdain has only increased following his confrontational response.

Ted and others have rightly suggested the John learn from this thread, it may provide him with valuable feedback from a pool of potential users who can appreciate his tools based on their legitimate innovation, beauty, and performance. Of course, he may instead be revealing that he doesn't really have any interest in the typical member of forums such as this. If so, its a shame.

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

GolfSteve in Calgary

>I had a chance to see a Bridge City plane (and other BC tools) this summer. The plane was a beauty. You should see the polish on the back of the irons.

After seeing that plane, I asked to get a copy of the BCT catalog. It arrived soon after (good service).

But, I was dismayed at the snake-oil salesman type of advertising write-up, which completely turned me off of their tools. The "membership" type stuff also completely turns me off.

I'm sorry to say that the bad flavour the advertising left in my mouth completely turned me away from what I saw were some beautiful tools.

There's no comparison between some of the Lee-Valley tools and the Bridge City tools, but there's also no comparison between the Bridge City catalogue and the Lee-Valley catalogue.

Re: Bridge City LA Smoother

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>It certainly isn't "sour grapes". When I buy a new tool, it's to obtain superior results with more ease, nothing else. Now eye candy is appreciated (fit and finish are NOT classified as eye candy), but being practical, it seldom convinces me to buy. If I feel a tool vendor is ripping me off on price (that is, not providing superior results with more ease for the price), I have to assume the vendor is a marketing organization, more interested in style and price than in performance, interested only in separating me from my money. I have nothing but disdain for such a vendor, and certainly will do all I can to avoid subsidizing his/her foolishness.

Pam