Fiasco!

Re: Fiasco!

So, you wanted to buy a router table........

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It's all your fault for coming down to help me out.

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Talked to the DAP tech. He said I didn't do anything wrong. He offered me my money back. Big deal. So it's a mystery. The recommended way to apply pressure is with a roller, which I did ( but perhaps not with sufficient force.) The fellow said following up with clamps doesn't hurt, but just the roller should be enough. Tomorrow morning will tell if the clamping saved the day.

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you know, you could have made a video of this on how not to laminate a table top......put it on YouTube......started a channel......

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Well, what do you expect, getting woodworking advise from WoodCentral? You should have searched on YouTube, instead.   ;^J [tongue in cheek]

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Just guessing here, but I assume you stirred the stuff in the can?  And My second guess is the stuff soaked into the surface of the MDF, leaving little or none to bond to the  other piece.  (You did coat both pieces, right?)  Wonder if you can treat this as a primer coat and recoat both pieces and try again?

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I don't care for the water based contact cement.  IF, you get it to stick the first time, in a few months to a year it will debond in places. DAMHIKT.

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Yeah, I stirred it. And, the first coat did soak into the MDF, so I did re-coat it, And , again , yes, I certainly coated both surfaces. If anything, I may have used too much-- one quart for 2 x 6 feet. It was a bit tacky right before I put the surfaces together. I'm still hoping it will bond up after clamping. Never had this problem with the solvent -based product.

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It's happening because you experimented with a new product on a finished piece of work instead of a couple of pieces of scrap to test the material. Continually amazed that people expect perfect results on something they have never done before. Or in this case, trying a type of glue never used before. I expect you will be surprised again when you remove the clamps. 

Re: Fiasco!

Fiasco averted! It's now  the next morning after panicking and reaching for heavy cauls and most of my clamps. The clamp-up worked perfectly. It's on there forever and flat as a pancake. Woodworkers know: you can never have enough clamps! 

A lesson(as per Dick Coers): try stuff on scrap before the actual project. But he is being particularly hard on me. I've done this kind of glue up many times successfully with solvent type glue; I asked here on the forum about the water based version, and most (not all) had success with it; I talked to the DAP Weldwood rep about how to use it -- even checked the 6 digit number on the lid for possible expiration date, I followed the instruction on the can to the letter. And as for trying on scrap, it may have worked well on a something small, but what kind of 2 x 6 foot scrap am I supposed to have lying around? AND...my big concern was fumes.

So what saved the day was clamping pressure. I'm beginning to think that my real error was not using enough force(I'm 84 and don't have the old muscles) when pressing the surfaces together. A bigger roller with more shoulder force may have worked better.

I'm still unhappy and won't recommend the water based product from DAP/Weldwood. It really should bond up instantly upon contact -- hence the name 'contact' cement!. 

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Eliot, you mentioned the surfaces were at bit tacky before going together. My experience with both kinds of contact cement is that they need to be dry to the touch before bonding the two faces together.

My scolding was directed towards people, you were just the inspiration Eliot, sorry!

This new generation of woodworkers seem to be fixated with quick results far more than actually learning the skills needed. A typical response, "I saw it done on YouTube...........?" Second favorite comment, "lots of mistakes were made, but I'm proud of it." This all started with TV woodworking entertainment, and participation trophies for kids. TV inspires the instant gratification. 30 minutes for Norm to make a sideboard for example. I blame my strict German upbringing on a farm on my perfectionism. I was shown how to do everything, and I sure had to pay attention because there was hell to pay if I did it wrong. Knowledge was passed on by experience, not watching TV. But I will say, I've never had to make excuses for the quality of my work. It's perfect or it's not done.

Kudos, Eliot!

You snatched success out of the grip of catastrophe. Those stories are always the best ... and most entertaining. A sigh of relief for you, good sir.

This thread is tickling an itch I have entailing sarcasm. Lots of it.

Triumph!

I am very glad this worked out.......and, I know you have some free shots coming.......

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They were very slightly tacky; the DAP rep said that was about right.

Re: My scolding was directed towards people, you were just the inspiration Eliot, sorry!

No need to be sorry. Your approach seems to be the right one when possible. I'm never upset here on this site; I sort of live for it. I didn't have your kind of instruction; I'm totally self taught. The closest to it was Mr. Donne, my Jr. High School shop teacher. Back then (around 1955) they still taught shop. Mr. Donne was always saying to the kids," No, you're  finished, I'm Donne". I turned my first (g-d awful) bowl with him.(Oddly enough one of my relatives still has it and puts peanuts in it. ) As for perfection, I've always said it's a hard thing to come by. But I believe you mean that "good enough is not good enough." I learned that from Art Leastman, a very fine turner.

What are you up to these days in woodworking? Would love to see something really fine for inspiration.

Re: My scolding was directed towards people, you were just the inspiration Eliot, sorry!

I don't want anyone to catch me in a lie: When I say self taught, I'm not counting the handful of classes I've taken, nearly all woodturning classes.Heavy weights like David Ellsworth, Cindy Drozda. But I believe 'self taught' is still accurate.

Re: Kudos, Eliot!

I have heard it said that a mark of a good woodworker is one who can fix his mistakes. This experience is not quite in that category, but, come to think about it, I was able to use  the resources I had (lots of clamps and cauls)  to save the day.

But I do listen to people like Dick Coers.  When, earlier today,I started adding some edge strips to this table, I noticed a tiny nick in the laminate right at the edge,  Ordinarily, I would ignore it; but after reading his critique and his attention to doing perfect work, I took the time to set up a makeshift fence and route along the whole edge of the table (a short side) a few millimeters to get rid of it. There's a bit of woodworking philosophy in what I did because the nick is of no functional consequence. So, in Coers spirit, it has to do only with the feeling one gets from doing it right.

Re: Kudos, Eliot!

"the feeling one gets from doing it right"

That needs to be incorporated into a bumper sticker, to get people thinking about "the feeling one gets from doing it right."

I like that phrase. It didn't click so much the first time I read it.

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I have never had success with water based contact cement. I only use the solvent based stuff. i have lost confidence in what the company techs tell me. I did a bunch of formica laminating for a local school district. They asked that I use water based. Whatever did stick eventually came apart later!!! redid everything with solvent base, no problems .

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Was the Formica layered onto something else, like hardboard, or was it "pure" Formica? How long did it take, roughly, to come apart later? Did it totally de-bond, or did  part of it stay bonded? If what I did comes apart altogether, I suppose I could start over with some other bonding agent. If it comes apart only in some places, that, it seems to me, would be the worst case.