Broke the tablesaw rules

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

TomD

Wow!, Glad you are "OK"

I got hit from a 3hp about 25 years ago. I was sorta OK on dimensions, but it was just a little too short, wide, and thick. It would have been fine if any of the above had been different. It was something like 14"x7" by 2". I don't remember, but it very nearly made it through without incident. That thing hit me hard, took the top off my thumb on the way past, and hit me around the belt buckle. I missed a day at work.

I don't really have a use for those 3hp cabinet maker saws. This one was a General a pal gave me, and it certainly wasn't the saw's fault. Well, all those saws including the modern Saw Stop ones are dinosaurs compared to European saws. I currently have an Inca, and a Beaver. I prefer saws I can overpower when they get antsy, and I prefer saws built for safety from the ground up.

If you are small in stature you would really like a small saw without too much reach to it. I am still looking for a small Inca, I have bought and sold a lot of the "Large" ones. I feel the monster 10" saw that has a fat fence on it it too much reach for me, and I am basically 6'3" from the waist up, as far as reach and shoulders and all that. I am 6'1" but have shortish legs. No problem pushing plywood through, but small precise parts, and I find it is a long way across the top.

For short stuff

Mark Mandell - Gone Round in New Jersey

I use one of several sleds or take it to the band saw for a safety rip. It's rare that anything under 3' goes in my table saw (3hp-left-JET cab)

Count yourself lucky it didn't go higher.

Consider making a small platform to give you more down-leverage on the workpiece.

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

Howard Rosenberg

I'm sorry to see you injured yourself. I hope that's the worst of it.

It's such a short distance, making it that much worse....

I hope you feel better fast.

Hope you're ok...

John in New Mexico

Aside from the bruise of course.

You're right, they sure can kick and throw stuff at you.

The shop I worked for in Tucson used two sticks, one to push and one to use as a splitter, poked into the kerf behind the blade to hold it against the fence and also handy to jam into a kerf that is trying to close. That alone was worth spending a couple years working in that place, a handy one to know.

Rules

Ellis Walentine

Yeesh, so sorry to hear about your kickback episode. It has happened to the best of us, and it's potentially deadly. The only real rule is to be as safe as necessary. Ripping operations on the tablesaw require that the workpiece be held down to the table and against the fence, and the best way I've found to do that is with a push stick that applies adequate downward pressure on the front of the workpiece while hooking positively over the back edge for positive feed pressure. You didn't mention whether you were pushing that piece with your bare hand or some sort of push stick, but if the blade picked up the front edge, we can probably conclude you didn't have enough downward pressure on the leading edge of the board.

The basic push stick design that I've been advocating forever is one made of plywood that vaguely resembles an old-fashioned hobnail boot, but with a forward inclined handle that transfers the force of your pushing into downward and forward pressure. I've never been comfortable with those thin push sticks with a little bird's mouth on the front because they don't exert enough pressure on the leading part of the board.

I'm not sure that "rule" you cited is quantified or written in stone anywhere. The gist of it is not to rip anything too short to control adequately through the cut. In my own experience, I've ripped considerably shorter pieces than yours, but always with the kind of push contrivance I mentioned here. But everyone's experience is different. If you don't feel safe, don't do it.

Ellis Walentine, Host

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

Garthfromsandiego

You didn't say whether you were ripping the piece or trimming the length using the fence as a gage. In the first instance a suitable push stick as Ellis described should prevent the problem in the future. If instead you were trimming length the safe approach is the use of a sled as others suggested. Cutting a small rectangular piece with the short side against the fence invites twist, binding, kickback, and therefore is unsafe. Use a sled. As someone who has been whacked a couple of times, I'm glad you weren't seriously hurt.

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

johannaj

So, Tom D, you can imagine how hard it is for me at 5'2" to move short stuff through the saw. I need to use some sort of carrier. Since I was just shaving off about an eighth of an inch, I could have used the jointer. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

Sgian Dubh

Can someone enlighten me please? I don't think I know what this 'tablesaw rule' refers to.

I suspect the reason might be because I'm in the UK and use tablesaws in a typical British/European manner. I'm guessing this tablesaw rule has something to do with the way North Americans generally use such saws, e.g., long rip fence, no splitter/riving knife and no crown guard, but I could be wrong. Slainte.

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

Mark Nowicki

What is the "typical European" manner?

Re: Hope you're ok...

Mark Nowicki

That sounds insanely dangerous.

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

Larry Clinton At Frankfort, (Central) Indiana

Several years ago I purchased a Micro jig "Grriper" table saw push block. Then I purchased a second one for use on the router table and Joiner. It gives me much more control and I have never had a kickback since (I have stopped my 3 HP Delta saw motor before when a piece pinched on the blade). No affiliation with the company or products but a very satisfied user.

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

Keith L Newton

johannaj, Sorry to hear about your accident. You have not given us enough information to understand what you did, to help you learn why it happened. As Richard stated, I'm not aware of a rule that would prevent ripping a 12 x 7" piece. One thing I would suspect though, whether using a push stick, or just your hand, is your hand placement. Was your fence set 7" over, and was you'r hand / push-stick over against the fence?

I place my hands near the center of resistance to feed, which is a combination of drag from the table, and effort needed to push the wood through the blade. If your hands are all the way over against the fence, the piece naturally wants to rotate counter clockwise.

Did you quit feeding the piece once the front of the blade cut through, then reached down to turn the saw off while the piece was still between the fence and blade. Even a very smooth vibration free blade will wobble as they slow down to a stop, so one rule I follow, is "Never stop feeding until the wood is clear of the back of the blade."

Guess you'd have to see it...

John in New Mexico

The method is safer than using just a single right handed pusher. The right hand one is roughly like Ellis describes and the left is a smoothed square stick with a birdsmouth. It gives you control where kickback accidents happen - on the back side of the cut in exactly the described circumstances. You don't use the left hand stick until there is a comfortable kerf (like more than an inch) so the stick doesn't get near the blade.

I've never had a mishap in 25 years of doing it this way. Only accident while I worked in that shop was a guy not using any pushers at all.

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

John in New Mexico

A riving knife would have prevented this event.

same experience...

David Weaver

..early on, with a friend introducing me to woodworking. Panel was slightly different (about 12x22x3/8) - larger in area, but thinner. The saw was a 5hp PM 66, something no hobbyist needs (but an article in one of the woodworking magazines convinced my friend that he needed a 5 horsepower saw to be able to feed 8/4 lumber at a high rate).

the outcome was the same, except I vaguely recall the sound (thump and ping), and I recall the panel flying across the shop with a short delay in realizing that it hit me and went about 90 degrees spinning like a frisbee. It was turned by the sawblade during the kickback and a corner hit me allowing it to fly sideways.

But my hands didn't end up following it into the blade, and it left a deep bruise and a lump for a long time right around my beltline. Would've been a bad day to be a tall fellow. Strong pain followed the initial second or two of figuring out why the panel that was on the saw suddenly hit a wall about 25 feet to my left)

Never had a kickback since - it was a valuable lesson. never gotten my fingers anywhere close with pressure on a workpiece that could move laterally into a blade, either - at least not since then.

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules *LINK*

Sgian Dubh

Hi Mark, the typical European manner for ripping includes a short set rip fence, riving knife, crown guard and a couple of bird's mouth push sticks. Nearly twenty years ago I contributed to an article Barb Siddiqui wrote and was published here at WoodCentral at this link . In that article, near the bottom are a couple of images of me using a sliding table saw, set up for ripping.

That the machine is a larger and more powerful saw than perhaps many people on the forum use, and it being a sliding table saw is immaterial as far as technique goes. I, as is the case for probably 98% of Europeans, set up for ripping operations much the same as illustrated in that article, whether that be for large and powerful saws or for small portable site saws. The method illustrated and discussed in the article provides good safety, whether that be for ripping long and heavy material, or short and light material. Having said that, no method or technique can guarantee 100% safety, but kickback using the technique I use is extremely rare. I personally haven't experienced any kind of kickback on a table saw for perhaps thirty years or more, whether that's for ripping or cross cutting, with solid wood or with man-made board.

I have never really understood why North Americans use table or cabinet saws the way they do. I lived and worked as a furniture maker for ten years in Texas and had opportunity to observe a number of kickback accidents experienced by American woodworkers in the workshop, all of which involved exposed saw blades, no guarding and full length rip fences and, I suppose, truth be told, a flagrant disregard or ignorance of and for safety in general.

I've no interest in starting a debate about safe saw practices. Many years ago I used to discuss the issue with North Americans, but for the most part I met strong resistance, even hostility, so I gave up.

I'm still not sure what this "tablesaw rule" is though, so I'm hoping for enlightenment if anybody is willing to outline it. Slainte.


Ripping Long Boards On The Tablesaw

Similar experience...

Jerry Nicholson

cutting a 4 inch square piece of aluminum for a lens board on an old camera. I broke several "good sense" rules and the the aluminum bound up and hit my stomach, which should not have been in line with the blade, at high speed. My first thought was "this could be bad". I was unbuttoning my shirt when blood started showing up all over my front. An "uh-oh" moment! It turned out all the blood was from a gash in my thumb and I lucked out with only an abrasion on my stomach. No stitches in my thumb, just a band-aid for a few days but I have tried to be much more careful about where I stand since then.

Not the only dumb thing I have done with tools in my 85 years!

Re: Guess you'd have to see it...

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I use a push stick like Ellis describes, and I consider it to be sacrificial. In the movie Karate Kid, Mr. Miyagi offers some good advice I always try to follow. He said, “Best defense is not be there.”

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

David Weaver

that's correct - most of the kickbacks would not occur even with a splitter. The contraption sold on saws here is fences that don't set accurately and a guard with splitter attached and with kickback pawls - at least that used to be the standard. Because it was awkward and ungainly for anything other than large pieces, it was often gone and the joke was always "well, norm says don't forget your safety glasses".

The english friend of mine here who get me in trouble with kickback didn't want to use a splitter, and had himself gotten his hand pummeled by kickback of a small piece.

I didn't read your second post, but I'm guessing you will mention a saw with a splitter or riving knife and a fence that terminates before it would be long enough to trap a turning piece and allow a kickback (or both of those). It's just not common here and not being a power tool user at this point, I have no clue why - aside from seeing when I was getting out of using power tools, that saws with riving knife setups were becoming more common (my jobsite saw has one, but the knife terminates above the blade height and does create no ability to do partial height cuts).

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

Mark Nowicki

Thank you for the referral to the article (Ripping Long Boards On The Table saw).

I have an INCA 259 table saw that I bought more for the coolness factor than need. it came with a short L-shaped extrusion which INCA calls an auxiliary fence. Till today I didn't know its purpose.

The best way I can find to explain why NA table saw design has not changed in over a century is comparing my experience with NA vs European cars.

We moved to NA in the early seventies. In Europe we had a 67 Volvo 144, our first car in NA was a 67 Rambler American.

The Volvo had 4 wheel disk brakes, rack and pinion steering (three turns lock to lock) full seat belts, standard mud guards, reclining seats, two-speed wipers, electric window defogger, manual choke and a trunk/boot that could easily hold 6 suitcases and still leave access to the spare

tire.

The Rambler had drum brakes, worm gear steering (seven if not more turns) lap belts only, vacuum wipers, rear window defogger ( just a hole in the back shelf, "automatic " choke which jammed either open or closed and a trunk bigger than the Volvo's most of the space taken up by a spare tire and a three foot jack.

The best part was the floor operated high beam switch which would rust solid after the first Canadian winter.

Our 75 Olds still had the floor mounted floor switch and the same unusable trunk .

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

William Duffield

A while back, they changed the rules on splitters vs. riving knives in the U.S, because riving knives are safer, especially if you don't remove them and throw them in a drawer somewhere. My Sawstop had an adjustment problem with the riving knife and blade. The riving knife was a smidgen higher than the top of the blade, and when cutting a rabbet or groove, the knife would start lifting the work as soon as it struck the knife, and kep lifting it higher the longer the board. It was an easy fix. I just ground a little (about 1/16") off the top of the riving knife. Of course, I might need to redo the adjustment whenever I get the blade resharpened. I also need to keep track of which riving knife I use with each saw blade, since a thin kerf blade jams the wider knife.

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

David Weaver

what little I use my saw, I haven't thought about it. I just use two pushsticks and stand to the side - but we're talking about something that happens on average once a year. I'll have to take out the riving knife apparatus and make it what I want - it is a bit proud of the blade, enough that you can't make accurate stopped cuts - not a fan.

But I can't actually remember what I was doing and when I found that.

(plenty of grinding equipment around now - kind of forgot about metal things that could use adjustment - now's the time to do it).

Re: Broke the tablesaw rules

AZ in Colorado Springs

"... a flagrant disregard or ignorance of and for safety in general ..."

Amen to that (especially the bit about ignorance), unfortunately.

Re: johanna

TomD

I can well understand your difficulty. My wife is about that size also.

Just the stuff we all know, for general review.

The most important rule is to simply refuse to do anything dangerous. Never risk it. Of course I didn't imagine the cut that kicked me was actually dangerous, so there is a learning curve, and if it occurred to one to be embarassed about an accident, I wouldn't bother. There are some very dangerous little traps in the workshop.

To follow the refuse danger rule, you need to have options, and what are the options with removing a small slice of wood from a small block.

- Jigged delivery as you mentioned.

- Bandsaw with clean up by hand tools. Bandsaws are one of the most dangerous tools in the shop, for obvious reasons of their unlimited geometry. There is a reason why butchers use them on carcasses. But when used with care, they have very few bad habits in many applications. When removing small slices, they can wander a bit, which is why they need a follow up with some other tool.

- The most versatile, and hand saving, is to have some hand tools and a proper work holding bench, with a good vise. But there is a steep acquisition and learning curve if one isn't already there.

- The simplest is to do the rip while the piece is still big and then crosscut.

- Another option is to lower the blade and rip in two shots. Possibly so the part never comes off, and there is a little final clean-up. This mitigates kickback, by lowering the part of the formula that has to do with depth of cut. But you could still get a pinch and a kick. The result might be less catastrophic. Probably more of a thing where when lowering the blade comes to mind, you know you are in the danger zone and should rethink.

- One of the worst would be the jointer (rotary, powered). It can kick back, and while the piece normally passes one on the way to the next wall in the shop, one's hands will often land in the cutterhead and the damage will be truly terrible. Even using effective push sticks, it can be pretty exciting if the machine takes over. Older round, or square cutter heads, are even more likely to kick. Feed rate is important.

With most power tools, one needs to remain in control of one's body for the length of the cut, never commit weight in the direction of the cutterhead, if your body will lean off it's stable base, best to rethink the whole thing. Ask yourself what would happen if the piece was instantly no longer there.

Be sure the saw is properly tuned, and aligned in all dimensions. On some US classic saws one of the overlooked issues is the front to back tilt of the table top. The basic issue is that when the blade is tilted you can actually create a narrowing horizontally and vertically relative to the fence. I had this on my dad's saw, But it being low powered and my being strong, I could fight it out with the smoke and the dimming lights. One a 3hp saw, you would ride the plank to the emergency if you tried that.

Two things I no longer do on my table saw, are make cuts with the blade tilted. Not worth the set-up on my saw, and it can be dangerous. But mostly it isn't efficient on the Inca, so no loss.

The other thing is I rarely rip through. I just quit and flip. I do a lot of work where the pieces are so long I have to move out of the shop. After my flirtation with guitar building, I decided to never run my hands past the blade. There are exceptions, but the contrast between building classical guitars and loosing my fingers was just to stupid. Obviously there are some set-ups that have been perfected, and where there are massive support tables where passing through is perfectly safe. I don't consider helpers one of them. I have never had a helper who owned their own saw, and knew how to use it. When working with smart people, they always try to do one thing they were told not to do during the briefing, "to help". Stupid people, you get what you paid for. And then there is their safety that needs to be the first priority...