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Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

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Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#1

Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

Barry Irby

Caught a few minutes of Antiques Roadshow. Lady brought in a Nakashima end table from the 70's. Walnut, but bleached white from sun exposure. The Appraiser told her the fading did not hurt the value because "You just rub some linseed oil on it and the color will be fully restored." And Nakashima himself advised people to maintain the pieces with steel wool and linseed oil.

I've never tried it, but I am skeptical. Could it be as simple as that to restore the color?

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#2

Clint Searl

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

Clint Searl

I think the lady would be well advised to contact Mira Nakashima to see about proper restoration or DIY action.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#3

Clint Searl

Nakashima used a tung oil finish


Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#4

And that fact.....

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

....is why I always stain walnut with a mineral pigment stain. Minimalist finishes have their limitations.

Let's see. Original finish was oil. Sun bleached it. Adding colorless oil is going to restore the color?

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#5

Hi Bill...

Martin S.

Can I ask what you use? I have some raw walnut I need to finish, and it could use a little darkening, as it has faded a little.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#6

Re: Hi Bill...

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I make my own stain from artist pigment. By weight 10-20% (depending on darkness) artist burnt umber, 10% linseed oil, mixed into General Finishes "Prestain Wood Conditioner"

result


Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#7

Thank you!


Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#8

PS

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The formula is not some concoction I dreamed up. I asked a chemist at General finishes how they made their mineral pigment stains and that's what I got. I added some linseed oil for the walnut stain for I thought it gave the result some additional depth.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#9

Re: PS...You pad it on?

Barry Irby

Can you make a sprayable version that would work under lacquer?

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#10

Re: PS...You pad it on?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have described a dozen times how the stain is applied, most recently a month ago. If you were new here I would take the time to describe it once again.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#11

Barry's actual question?

Henry (Raleigh NC)

Bill

I understand that you choose to not repeat info you have posted often, but Barry's question could (I think) be re-stated as follows, by combining the Subject and body of the thread:

"I understand that you pad this stain on. Can you make a sprayable version usable under lacquer?"

Henry

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#12

Re: Barry's question

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Since the oil stain has to be rubbed in and the excess wiped off, spraying the initial application would not be worthwhile and would certainly create a mess to clean up the oily overspray.

Very different fron using a tinted shellac or lacquer to blend color before the topcoat.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#13

that is a confusing question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

What I am preparing is a wiping stain. Normally it is brushed on to excess and the excess wiped off. From a pad it can be added as needed without the waste of wiping off and the benefit of more controlled adding of color. I don't know how applying a wiping stain with a spray gun would offer any advantage. It would certainly be a wasteful way of applying it.

There are both dye and pigmented stains formulated for spraying. Spray to get color depth and don't wipe off. You had better be experienced with a spray gun to use them.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#14

well, it's antiques roadshow...

David Weaver

...not a great source of information.

A good lesson in life in general is going straight to a source for information rather than going to a third party.

My parents have unstained cherry (old) and unstained walnut (old) and stained walnut (old). The stained walnut is dark. I have no clue what it was stained with as it was refinished at some point.

The unstained cherry furniture is darker than the walnut furniture, and most people would probably think by the color that it looks like it's something other than cherry (everyone is already aware of the waxed mahogany color that's called "cherry" stain color).

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#15

last year....

David Weaver

i ran into a situation where my wife wanted cherry to be brown instead of cherry. Upon reading about lightfast stains, I found the same thing bill does (and there was some discussion on the HT side that's not necessary to look for other than to say that the venture was a huge success compared to trying to use canned stains, and it's earth pigments so it's lightfast forever from any practical purposes).

I don't know if the artist color matters, but you can get micronized pigments from kremer pigment also and mix them.

I found the ronin colors (probably true for all distillate or oil based pigments that the MSDS shows as being hydrocarbon based) to mix easily into a minwax light stain or a "pre-conditioner" which is just by smell (probably by MSDS) to be similar to the solvent in the stains. I mixed the artist pigment at about 30%, which was pretty strong.

The micronized pigments see highly sanded surfaces as very porous (Because they're still tiny compared to something like a 400 or 600 grit surface), so the wide flat surfaces take on the stain evenly vs. the actual canned stain, which settles only into grain, etc, efficiently.

The artist pigment type doesn't penetrate that deeply, either, it's thicker, so you can wipe it on sparingly and then take a clean rag and rub off any excess pigment on the surface.

It colored as evenly on a hand plane cherry flatsawn surface as it did on a sanded surface, which was a shock.

I'll never stain any other way - prior to that, already used bill's "rubber" method of applying stain rather than soaking and wiping off excess, but that was to avoid the can stains from drenching grains while leaving top surfaces far less stained.

Artist pigments seem expensive, but one quart of concoction would do three large projects. It may be less cost in the long run, before even considering that it's easy to nail application and you'll be trialing mixing pigments in little bits rather than buying "test cans" of stain at $4 or $8 or whatever they decide to charge for them.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#16

I asked george wilson.....

David Weaver

..after I'd already started, what he would use for something lightfast as he warned me in the past about how lightfast some dyes can be when exposed to constant light (not as lightfast as expected, even the ones that are considered to have good light-fasted-ness (not a real combination of words? I made that up).

George mentioned a german pigment/stain maker that I've forgotten now that they use at CW that sounds like it's more or less a commercial version of what Bill advocates.

For people who don't stain much (I don't), it can be difficult to get good advice on both easy to use methods (Easy to get even deep color without obscuring grain or highlighting it too much) that are also lightfast.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#17

staining or toning?

David Weaver

Is it correct to assume that if being sprayed, it maybe used as a layer rather than as a stain with a clear on top? As in, common on guitars is spraying a toned lacquer and then continuing to spray on top of that with a clear lacquer. when the lacquer chips, the wood under is unstained.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#18

Oiled wood

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Oiled anything gets black with enough years. It is not the wood that is black. It's the oil. We had oiled cherry butcher blocks in previous house and they were near black after a few decades.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#19

I should've probably...

David Weaver

..described parents' furniture better, though I don't know if it was oiled before finish.

The furniture (cherry) is about the same color as my grandparents' custom cabinets (mid 1970s) that were just finished with polyurethane or some type of modern finish back then (their clockmaker friend did cabinetry - they did have some cherry that he stained "cherry" that looks like the color most folks suggest is cherry now).

Not sure why the kitchen cabinets weren't also stained. They had that kind of "nobody likes it now" color of real cherry. No blackness, just a deep reddish hue.

Dad visited a neighbor who had a spouse pass away last year and then went next door to the new owners and got their back story. He brought up the cabinets (due to a fascination with cherry that I don't quite follow - cherry is nice, but he talks of it as if it's gabon ebony) and said "the cabinets in the kitchen were solid and built in. I'll bet these days if you sell the house, someone will want to tear the cabinets out and put white ones in". The lady blushed and said "they were too dark, we didn't tear them out, but we had them painted white"

The only stained cherry furniture that my parents have (that I'm aware of) is "pennsylvania house" queen anne furniture that, let's just say, has every crisp line removed. But it's definitely "cherry stain" color.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#20

Re: Artist's Pigment

Hank Knight

When Bill refers to "artist's pigment," he is referring to artist's oil paint that comes premixed in a tube, not the dry mineral pigment that tints the oil paint. I was following his recipe for walnut stain and ordered 100g of dry burnt umber mineral pigment from Kremer's in New York. Fortunately, Bill set me straight before I used it, and I went to my local art supply store and bought a couple of tubes of burnt umber oil paint. The project was a great success, thank's to Bill's formula and tutelage. I still have the 100g of dry powdered burnt umber mineral pigment. If anybody wants it, drop me an email and I'll send it to you, fee of charge.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#21

artist pigment color even-ness

David Weaver

Just as an addendum from earlier. In testing (very first few pieces) of the artist pigment added to the stain base, this is a piece of planed cherry:

https://i.imgur.com/319ewry.jpg?1

This is a piece of sanded cherry:

https://i.imgur.com/psUXnUJ.jpg?1

The fact that there's little difference between the two was very encouraging as not all of the parts of my case were perfect wood - some had a lot of runout on the case sides, and others didn't. I was concerned about that turning to blotch.

The uptake on a larger door panel:

https://i.imgur.com/WI7kW6U.jpg

I learned as I went along to get a little better with it. The ends of this panel aren't quite as ideal as the center, but compared to canned stain, it's lovely.

https://i.imgur.com/WI7kW6U.jpg

after initial french polishing (sheen more even after it rested and then got another cycle):

https://i.imgur.com/2sIVWqW.jpg

You can see an earlier test board on the right with canned stain. I was playing with colors and getting the hang of the stain with short strips. left to right, unstained wood, two attempts with artist color and on the right ,stain from the can before I realized that was a lost cause.

https://i.imgur.com/Y8gvu5H.jpg

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#22

if the pigments are micronized, it..

David Weaver

...should be the same thing.

I used Ronin artist colors which are the same thing you're thinking, but perhaps more dry than what comes out of a Bob Ross oil tube.

The ronin is just a concentrated can of oily paste, but i couldn't tell you how different it is in consistency vs. what's in an artist oil paint tube or what the carrier is for most artist's paints.

Distillate was used for the ronin, which was important for me as I wanted to mix it in a stain base and I didn't want something with natural oils as I didn't want to learn what would mix with what.

I also have micronized pigments from kremer, but I got the micronized versions as the size of the particle probably has a whole lot to do with how even the color will be. If I can actually find them, I'll put a drop of stain base out on a piece of wood and rub the pigment into it and see what the result is as I recall doing that first before getting the japan colors.

....followup - looking at the can, the brand that I bought was "ronan". The emphasis on any of them being that they can be cleaned up by mineral spirits and there's some boast of "microfine" or "superfine".

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#23

Re: if the pigments are micronized, it..

Hank Knight

The traditional carrier for mineral pigments in oil paint was linseed oil. I'm sure there are more ingredients in modern oil paint, but I don't know what they are.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#24

Re: artist pigment color even-ness

Hank Knight

David, the results of your test with the canned stain would have scared the hell out of me and would probably have ended my thoughts about staining the piece. Thanks for your lesson on perseverance. Both of the tests with artist's pigment look great. Even so, the difference between the planed piece and the sanded piece is remarkable, but not unexpected. The clarity of the grain in the planed piece is wonderful, but not so much with the sanded piece.

Re: Sun bleached Nakashima table Question

#25

MSDS..

David Weaver

based on the MSDS, they're "aliphatic hydrocarbon" now then the individual differences between colors.

older listings just said that they were "linseed oil paste with super fine pigments and a combination of drying agents".

Just a hunch that they switched due to cost (unless there was some kind of issue with artists putting linseed oil cleanup stuff in bags to combust). Don't know.

I'm guessing that the japan colors are just pastier versions of artist colors. Google doesn't give me a quick answer - just a bunch of prioritized ads.

I have separate experience with micronized pigments from using them on razors. They work great, But much care has to be taken as they're a bear if spilled. The fine grade iron oxide powder is less than a tenth of a micron.

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