Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

Re: Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

Steve D, CT

I would consider using 3/8 hollow chisel mortises so the shoulder of the pickets will hide the hole in the rail. The pickets would remain 1/2 square.

I have a long term Morris chair project with 4 slats on each side, 2-1/2 or 3" wide that I used a hollow chisel on. There were much more than 28 plunges of the bit and no resharpening was required.

Your task doesn't seem like it will wear out any tooling. Even if you need to resharpen, that's part of the hobby.

Re: Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

Dave Bair

If you use a 1/2" mortise bit, your pickets will have no shoulder and any minor chip-out will be obvious. Use a 3/8" instead; it will punch more easily and you can have a shoulder (although it'll be small). I've done more than 100 mortises in WO between sharpenings. Use a 1/2" spacer gauge between mortises to maintain uniformity.

Domino-oo-ooo (sing it!) ...

Henry (Raleigh NC)

Don't you have one? Can you concoct a means of doing this with a DOmino. I have the narrow trim attachment or whatever they call it, and this would great. Not sure your 1/2" piece provides enough material even with the smallest bit though. Haven't worked out the sizes. Judging the value of the suggestion is left to the discretion of the user!

I spent most of the day using a Domino to put together what was 'supposed to be a quick 2x4 lumber desk. Domino made it quicker - but there were too many pieces for this to have been quick. My fine furniture gene also kicks in and I want things flat, level, square, and plumb, but that's not necessarily called for in this farmhouse or country style.

Henry

Re: Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

Barry Irby

Thanks, Steve and Dave, both of you have suggested 3/8 mortices. To that I say Hmmm?

The pickets will be Ebonized in an other wise natural chair. I was thinking of making the upper mortices twice as deep as the bottom ones so that if a picket got broken it could be replaced later. ( I might be overthinking this) I Could make the top mortices half inch and the bottom ones 3/8. Hmmm, again.

In the past, I have left the rail a 1/16" too wide and after the mortices are cut run it over the jointer to clean up the edges. Thanks for the reminder and you can use that trick sometime.

Thanks again

Re: Domino-oo-ooo (sing it!) ...

Barry Irby

Yes I do have a Domino and it will get serious use on these chairs, but not for the pickets.

The side to side width of the Domino slot is about 7/8" on the narrow setting. Not suitable for this. I have thought many time it would be nice to be able to turn the side to side off and use it as a dowel machine.

I do wish they would make a 3/8" bit for it. I have hundreds of pieces of maple that are 7/8 by 3/8"but the 10 mm bit is about one or two hundredths too big. Somebody sells one that is reground for the bigger Domino but not the smaller one. I just dress my sticks down to 8 mm and they work well.

Good thought though. The Domino is a game changer as far as I am concerned. If you don't have one, don't hesitate to get one.

Re: thought so...

Henry (Raleigh NC)

Barry

I hadn't done the math or looked at specs, but I figured that was the reason. Seems like an opportunity for Festool to make a 3rd version - a mini Domino. Yup you heard it here first folks! After all LV makes a bunch of tiny planes ... why not make a tiny Domino?

Re: Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

Henry (Raleigh NC)

Barry - aside from the DOmino (which in essence is wiggly router made for slots), why not use a router and dado jig?

I don't know the location on the seat and whether you have a reference surface parallel to the row of spindles, but you could create one (ref surface) and go from there. Obviously you need a small router bit, 1/8" or 3/16" even), but I have been able to adapt a horizontal bit router table to do these sorts of things safely. I have not done loose tenon mortises in the end grain of something 1/2", but have done 3/4" material (1/4" bit) - even though you don't have to do loose tenons (not sure I would in this case).

None of this answer your indexing question though.

Henry

Re: Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

Jesse Cloud

Henry has a good idea there.

I would suggest making templates for a router guide bushing to follow, maybe one for each end if they are different in any way.

This would minimize chances of error and speed up the process greatly if you have to do a lot of them.

Re: Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

AZ in Colorado Springs

I'd use your idea #2. I used that technique on some beds I made a while back -- a set of bunk beds and then a single in matching style.

I had slats instead of 1/2 x 1/2 square spindles, but the technique is similar. I cut the grooves using the dado stack, then milled slat boards to fit nicely into the grooves.

I milled an extra board while I was making the slats and it became the filler pieces. Nice fit; I just had to cut them to the proper widths & lengths.

A template for a guide bushing

Jack Dover

Was about to suggest that too. A template can be made very accurately in a number of ways. It can be referenced off of anything, even a center line if both pieces are already shaped. Mortises will be rounded, but it's quite easy to square them off, with a hollow mortiser or a chisel.

The only downside is time spend on making a template could be spend working on mortises, most probably this is going to be a one-time jig.

Re: Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I used the same technique when I made a Morris chair 25 years ago. I didn’t have a hollow chisel mortiser and I did have a router. Worked slick!

Will you be making a lot more chairs?

Re: Will you be making a lot more chairs? I hope n

Barry Irby

I have been avoiding chairs for my whole life. With some sense of dread I think they have been pursuing me and have finally snuck up on me.

I built the table for these people and they want chairs made of the very same wood so I am making them.

The problem is I had exactly enough stock. At least thicker stock and I have used every stick of it. Can't afford a mistake at this point.

Re: Will you be making a lot more chairs? I hope n

Mark Hennebury

The reason that I asked about you continuing to make chairs is that there are some great machines available for that job, if you plan on doing chairs on a regular basis.

What machines?

Barry Irby

I feel like I am be drawn to the Dark Side.

I watched a video of someone using a Pantorouter. It looked interesting. What else you got?

Welcome, we've been waiting for you...

Mark Hennebury



I did lots of tables and chairs with Balestrini mortise and tenon machines. They are small by industrial standards, but serious machines for a small shop. They can be had for a reasonable price, if you get the older used models. They do excellent work, they do it fast. You would have to have three phase power and you have to do some tinkering, but it offers a whole world of potential if you are interested in going that route. This type of machine is very versatile, precise and fast. The tenon machine is pure magic, it cuts infinitely variable length, width depth, with radiused ends to match, it cuts crisp clean shoulders, chamfered ends, straight, angled and compound angled tenons. It cuts dowels infinitely adjustable diameter( within the range of the machine.)

There are many brand names, but the ones that i am familiar with is Balestrini. others are Bacci, Pade Helma, Greda, etc.

The machines that i had were Balestrini 2CAP mortiser, and the Balestrini 2TAO, they of course have many newer models since, but the old ones can be had for a reasonable price and you will find many projects to use them on.

Thousands of dollars "cheap" Barry

Relative... *LINK*

Mark Hennebury

Cost is relative.

"if you need a machine, you are already paying for it"

I did a job for a woodshop that got an order for 300 hard maple bunkbeds sets. They didn't have the equipment to do it.

I did all of the mortise and tenons on my machines. Paid for the machines and more on one job. And the tenoner does 600 tenons an hour, so it didn't take me very long.

It all depends on what you are doing and how you evaluate your time and expenses.


A video of the machine working.

Re: Relative...Impressive...

Barry Irby

I have no experience with commercial wood working so I shave no idea what machines exist. That one is fascinating and if I had the use for it to keep it busy the price of a few thousand would be very reasonable.

Of course, it would take a little getting ready. The joke about my shop is that if I get one more machine I will just have to stand in the door and admire them. There would be no room for me. So, the major expense would be building a new shop building and bringing in three phase power. At my age, I don't think it's happening.

Re: Row of Pickets questions for chairs....

William Duffield

If you are considering future repair strategy, when and if that time comes, join two half sticks (with one tenon on each) with a scarf joint, and clamp and glue it in situ. You will only need enough play in thelength/depth of the M&T joints to insure you could align the two halves of the sticks.

Re: Relative...Impressive...

Mark Hennebury

Of course the machine has to fit with you and your situation, and if its not right for you, you can find some other way.

The Balestrini machines worked out perfect for me. I tinkered with them and got them to work very well, they did excellent mortise and tenons, clean, accurate, repeatable, and quick. So i never had to worry about doing mortise and tenons, didn't matter if i needed to do ten, a hundred or a thousand. It give you a certain sense of freedom to do whatever furniture you wanted, the joinery was not limiting factor..

Lots of good industrial machinery out there, and access to three phase power gives you the chance to get it.

I used a rotary phase convertor, in shops where i didn't have three phase power.

Good luck with your chairs.

Phase converter makes three-phase easy.