face gluing

How big of a face?

Lee Schierer in McKean, PA

How large are the pieces you hope to glue together?

Lee

Re: How big of a face?

markas

7" wide 64 1/4 long. thank you.

Re: face gluing

Garthfromsandiego

My favorite is the Bessey 12," tradesman clamp. Put the boards on a flat surface with risers and apply clamps on both sides as necessary. If the boards are fairly flat, you maybe can use some spring clamps. But they cannot bring the joint together like the tradesman clamps. Also have some pony clamps that serve well in this application.

Spread the load

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Individual point loads are not advisable. Better than a clamp, or 2 or 3 ..., are the use of cauls and then clamps. You could even first place a layer of sponge over the two boards, and then a layer of MDF or ply on top of the sponge, and the lot clamped down.

Regards from Perth

Dere

Re: face gluing

Wiley Horne

Hi Markas,

1. Ideally, you would use something like Bessey K clamps, or similar, that reach to the middle of the board, when applied both sides. And place them every 6”, or at most, every 8” (from my experience).

2. But if you don’t have a slew of Bessey K-body clamps, then you figure out how to use what you do have to create strong pressure, both along the two boards and extending to the center.

3. For example, you could use Bessey tradesman clamps (already mentioned) to reach to the center. Or if your clamps are all short throw, you could look around the shop for sticks that have a camber, and use these as cauls applied across the work and clamped anywhere. Cauls are also a way to compensate for not having lots of clamps.

So if you don’t have the exact best thing—or enough of them—use ingenuity with cauls.

4. What’s the right spacing along the boards? You’re looking for strong and even squeeze-out along the boards, rather than strong squeezeout directly under the clamps, and tailing off in between. Of course, once you’re at that point in the glue-up, you either have enough clamps or you don’t—it’s too late to rethink—that’s why I suggest$d a spacing.

Wiley

How thick are the materials?

Jim Matthews

For shop veneers, I use masking tape and all the College textbooks I never read.

There are no best clamps

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Your's is an easy clamping job. The surfaces must be flat. You can not rely on the clamps to pull the pieces flat if they are not. Wet both surfaces with thin layer of glue. Get the pieces together quick before they start to curl from water(glue) on one side. Get a few clamps on quick to hold the assembly in place. Add more clamps, ideally lots more clamps.

Anything that will apply pressure can be useful. For example,

I don't agree on the cauls

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

They will slow down getting clamps on(critical) and provide questionable benefit. Think of the extremes. Suppose what was being clamped (or the caul) was infinitely stiff. One clamp in the middle would be sufficient because the stiffness would spread the force uniformly across the whole of the piece. Suppose the caul was more flexible than the board beneath. In this case the caul would do nothing useful spreading the force. In fact, a practical caul will fall between these extremes.

As a test, select two pieces of plywood or MDF that you would consider using for a caul. Put two spacer blocks between these simulated cauls, then add a clamp in the middle of the space between the spacer blocks. Clamp and note deflection of these cauls and the amount of force to cause the deflection. In the case of flexible plywood and MDF I predict you will not need much force to deflect them, which means they are doing little to spread the clamp force.

While on this topic, there is no justification for believing the oft stated claim that clamp force spreads out 45 degrees from the clamp point. Spread depends on stiffness of what is under the clamp.

an additional comment on clamps

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

What is important is to get the edges mated into a strong joint. Failure here must be avoided. The middle is not subject to much failure forces.

Personally I would have no reluctance to do this assembly only with edge gluing bar clamps and rely on the stiffness of the boards to get sufficient pressure to the middle of the assembly. They typically have 2" deep jaws so you will have direct pressure over 4" of the 7 1/2 needed. Good enough in my mind. If you have "J" style clamps add them to the middle. In my shop (that has lots of clamps) I would have as many bar clamps along the edge as there was room to put them, and J clamps along the middle.

good point

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I assumed you were gluing two boards together. If veneer to boards a caul is essential.

Re: I don't agree on the cauls

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Rob Cosman does something similar to my suggestion in the video below, but without the cauls. Cauls can reduce the number of clamps needed, which is a well-established method. I think Wiley is also indicating this.

Here's the video. Look from about 35 min ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97vAJg-KcFE&ab_channel=RobCosman.com

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: vacuum press

Grant In Iowa

Depending on the surface area involved and the need for flatness, and how often you might need the capability, I would suggest you consider a vacuum press solution.

The benefit of a vacuum press is that, given the right assembly procedure, you will get evenly distributed pressure. Given fixtures, you can bend wood too.

I build about a dozen ash water skis used on a show ski team that provides the best abuse you can imagine as far as stress testing. Not failures except where collisions were involved. I used Dap Weldwood as my adhesive. Went with Weldwood per another ski builder, a guy who builds offshore high speed skis. But I digress.

If you are interested in that approach, try Joewoodworker.com. he provides plenty (too much?) information on the subject.

FWIW,

Grant in Iowa

Re: How big of a face?

John McGaw

Are both faces of the sandwich for "show" or will one face be hidden? If the latter I can't see anything wrong with skipping the clamps and just shooting some brads or even screws in to hold everything. Additionally, will there be any mortices, etc cut into a stock face? If so you can easily run a screw into each mortice location to hold things and then remove them when the glue is dry.

Personally, when doing this sort of thing I usually just use whatever clamps are on hand that can reach the center of the stack and then add whatever spring clamps I have on the edges if the stock is thin enough. If the stock is well prepared, surprisingly little force is required to hold them together with the bigger problem being having them slipping out of alignment at the interface.

Re: How big of a face?

markas

Thanks for all the replies...

These will be 3 boards 1" thick by 7" by 64 1/4. I had a hard time finding 5/4 stock already dried at the time, so I decided to just glue up. These boards will be part of the headboard and footboard of a sleigh bed. One board I tried to glue up with a caul straight down the middle with some clamps around the edges but the next day, some of the edges bowed up. I guess I just didn't have enough clamps. At the time, the board looked even all the way around...Oh well...Lets try again

Re: face gluing

markas

Thanks for all the replies...

These will be 3 boards 1" thick by 7" by 64 1/4. I had a hard time finding 5/4 stock already dried at the time, so I decided to just glue up. These boards will be part of the headboard and footboard of a sleigh bed. One board I tried to glue up with a caul straight down the middle with some clamps around the edges but the next day, some of the edges bowed up. I guess I just didn't have enough clamps. At the time, the board looked even all the way around...Oh well...Lets try again

clamp question

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

you saw how many clamps I had on my face clamping project. How many do you own for this job- F style and bar? I would not risk this assembly with less than a clamp on each side every foot for about a dozen+ stout clamps. I would be happier with a clamp every 6"-8". Can you borrow any from another woodworker?

Re: clamp question

markas

That is a good answer and good question...I have been contemplating buying some more clamps if budget permits. they are extremely expensive but necessary. This bed needs to be completed so I guess, tomorrow I will try to buy some more. There has has really been some good and interested inputs I have read.....

The old saying...

David Yoho

you can never have enough clamps is true. If you're just starting out in woodworking you'll see this is true. Clamps are not inexpensive, as you noted, but it's essential to have plenty of various types on hand. This is a good time of year to possibly find some deals.

A couple things -

You mentioned in another response you ran a caul down the middle and clamped. As Bill noted in one of his responses, you probably want to concentrate on clamping the edges. If you prepared the adjoining faces properly you should be fine. If you do use cauls to help spread the clamping pressure they should be placed across the width not length.

Any clamp will work but for this job perhaps all you need are some good C clamps, which can be had for less money than F style or bar clamps.

Clamp styles

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

F style clamps are cheap. I have many and use them widely. The more I got, the less I used C clamps. In fact I can not recall resorting to my row of C clamps for woodworking in the past year. C clamps are so slow to adjust, but they can apply robust forces.

If you buy some 2' aluminum bar clamps like I have recommended in the past (named for some town in Ohio I think with a name I can not spell , damn French, Duquane or some such) you will thank me for the suggestion the rest of your woodworking career.

Re: Clamp styles

Barry Irby

I think Bill is trying to think of Dubuque Clamps. At his suggestion, I bought a dozen, 6 two footers and 6 three footers. Excellent clamps. I have thanked Bill on this forum for putting me on to them. Can not recommend them highly enough. I bought mine from Harry J Epstein and they were cheaper than other more well known sources and had excellent service. I suggest you get some.

I also have some Bessey K body parallel jaw clamps and do not find them to be as friendly to use and seldom reach for them. Find them heavy and fiddly to use. I clearly don't like them as well as many people.

I have had C Clamps for over fifty years and still use them. Don't have many F clamps unless you count the Irwin quick grip ones which I like, but I might like F clamps better is I break down and buy some.

Many years ago I wanted to face glue/laminate something like you are doing except longer. Could not find enough clamps locally. Made what I call shackles but what might be short cauls. Pieces of 2 by 2 about 3" longer than the width with holes through pairs of them for 3/8" Allthread rod. Must have made twenty. So here it is forty five years later and I still have some of the pieces of Allthread and have found many many uses for them over the years.

Workbench length

Jim Matthews

This is a substantial lamination.

The grain direction should be the same from end to end, but should be *opposed* across the width of each adjacent piece so that seasonal movement cancels.

Strip A \\\Strip B /// Strip C \\\

Lacking clamps, I would screw a plywood batten to the bench made of two 3/4" thick runs.

Stacked layers of plywood will give you a substantial ledger.

Lay a garbage bag, plastic sheeting or tarp over the batten and stack in the boards to be glued.

Place a second plywood batten on the "open" face opposite the first batten.

With the clamps you have squeeze everything together starting in the middle and screw the second batten into the bench.

Work your way out to the ends.

Tap down the glued boards so they are seated.

Re: The old saying...

markas

Yes, I saw several more clamps on amazon but a local habor freight had those deep jaw c-clamps and I think I will pick up a few of them..maybe along with a few more f-clamps. Some have mentioned Bessey. I usually dream about buying those every time I look at them but have yet to make that expensive purchase. Thank you for your response.

Re: Clamp styles

markas

I have never been a fan of C-clamps but I do think I will purchase a few of those deep jaw C-clamps. would you not advise that?

I never use my C clamps

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The inexpensive long jaw are springy and in my hands useless. I have gobs of F clamps. If I can take advantage of their convenience I do. Woodworkers Supply store brand have been good quality for me.