New large Project, need design ideas

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Henry (Raleigh NC)

Clarification

By "...the rail used on these bridges...." you do mean the hand rail or guard rail, correct? And I assume the 2nd and 3rd pictures are there to show the boring guard rails? The first pic is the one to be restored?

I am also confused by what passes over that bridge (the one to be worked on) if there is 'a pedestrian swinging bridge above/beside it' (may be a mis-quote there).

Is the bridge to be restored for cyclists only? What sort of traffic is the bridge expected to carry?

As to places for inspiration - well Pinterest or a Google image search are 2 of the common internet based methods - search deck railings. Lotsa possibilities likely, none as cheap to build. Architecture or art books or old magazines ('making up the title of 'Fine Deck-Building") are an old-school way - depending on what you mean by inspiration.

Henry

answers

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

By "...the rail used on these bridges...." you do mean the hand rail or guard rail, correct? And I assume the 2nd and 3rd pictures are there to show the boring guard rails? The first pic is the one to be restored? correct

pedestrian swinging bridge beside it' correct, redundant

What sort of traffic is the bridge expected to carry? foot, bike, rescue 4 wheelers

The suspension bridge is the historical foot bridge over the river here used to access isolated cabins in times past. State is requited to maintain it. It will be redundant to RR bridge but provide alternate for foot traffic.

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Wiley Horne

Bill,

Congratulations!!! Rails to trails is a huge idea—so glad you’re playing such an important role.

Some considerations

https://www.railstotrails.org/build-trails/trail-building-toolbox/design/bridges/

More considerations and guidelines

https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm07232329/index.htm

Photos and Ideas

[Do a google search of ‘beautiful trail bridges’, and click on images....some terrific examples...see Grant Park Bridge, Milwaukee Co.]

I suppose this span is too long for a full covered bridge, but surely an entry structure since it’s the trail head. An impressive entry structure is shown at Grant Park Bridge in Milwaukee County.

I kinda like the main I-beams and the rocky piers that you’re starting with.....

Wiley

I beam spannining the crossing? *LINK*

Jim Matthews

If the existing span is still solid, a faux arch could encapsulate the "backbone".


https://www.archdaily.com/60313/sava-footbridge-peter-gabrijelcic-peter-koren/50090a5028ba0d27a7001467-sava-footbridge-peter-gabrijelcic-peter-koren-photo

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Dick Coers

If you do a Google image search for rail trail bridges, you get quite a variety. All the ones I ride around here have concrete decks. Wet leaves on a wet wood deck are very dangerous on a bicycle. Almost like ice.

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

We have 18 bridges to restore and so far it is being done with private donations in an area that is the poorest in the state, SW VA. Bristol, VA is teetering near bankruptcy and Mendota is nearly a ghost town from the depression in the coal fields. Tourism is a hope.

In three years we have gotten 3 done. 10 of the bridges are in a gorge, scenic, but limited access for construction. Restoration is costing between $500 and $1000 a foot depending on how much support structure needs restoration. Cement decks are not an option.

Cumberland trail State Park *LINK*

JL

Email the rangers.

We (the wife and others) have worked on the trail. Down near Soddy Daisy, there is a beautiful bridge.


Cumberland Trail

Re: New large Project, need design ideas *LINK*

Gary Smyth

You might wish to check. https://na.eventscloud.com/file_uploads/84d67431518b85c3fbfa30e6073596c3_Brief_Dutch_Design_Manual_for_Bicycle_and_Pedestrian_Bridges_v1.3.pdf


https://na.eventscloud.com/file_uploads/84d67431518b85c3fbfa30e6073596c3_Brief_Dutch_Design_Manual_for_Bicycle_and_Pedestrian_Bridges_v1.3.pdfhttp://

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Jack Dover

BridgeWright blog has a bunch of references to historic designs and on timbered bridges in general, https://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: New large Project, need design ideas *LINK*

Dick Coers

I understand, I'd suggest some signage as a minimum for the slippery conditions. The Rock Island Trail that I ride weekly is maintained by the State of IL. But maintained is a pretty loose term. One thing your communities can do to encourage use is provide some porta-potties. On the Rock, bathrooms are 10 miles apart. Not horrible if you are on a bike, or a guy, but tough for the gals that are hiking. I really think mountain biking is likely to bring in more money to the community. Arkansas is making a real effort to bring in national riders and events. Events and competition bring in hotel nights and food purchases.


https://bikearkansasmagazine.com/events-2020

Another link  *LINK*


https://bikearkansasmagazine.com/braking-news/2020/11/18/little-rock-becomes-a-mountain-biking-destination

Re: Cumberland trail State Park

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

could not find bridge picture

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

that was useful....thanks

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Barry Irby

Having been a Home Inspector I look at that railing and think, Nope. It would be easy to build but offers too much temptation for someone to climb over. Deck rails I have built recently have been a rail top and bottom and for pickets I used copper clad ground rod sections. I had 8' rods cut into 32" sections. Drill 5/8" holes top and bottom on 4" centers and you are golden. One the bottom I drill a 1/4" drain hole all the was through.

I know this is a minor consideration in the overall scheme of things, but it makes an attractive, strong, and durable railing

Dick is right about slippery decks. I was going to mention not to use composite decking for that reason. Keep the bottom rail four inches of the deck for easy cleaning.

I have a friend who is quite the cyclist, I will as her for suggestions.

Some of the new glass railings would be beautiful but I would fear vandalism.

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

My only comment would be: don't build a railing with horizontal elements that kids can climb. Because if they can, they will; and, when they do, they'll occasionally wind up in the water.

Re: New large Project, need design ideas

Clint Searl

Assuming required compliance with FSH 7709.56b - Transportation Structures handbook

CHAptER 80 - TRAIL BRIDGE DESIGN and constrained economics, Barry's design description looks to be the most doable,

leaving only to select what to use for pickets.

Safety clarifiction

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

We have a bridge engineer on this project. He retired from building RR bridges and now consults/designs Rails to Trails bridges and has done dozens including all on the Virginia Creeper Trail. He will be responsible for design and State permitting. Without intervention the restoration is going to be like shown in the pictures because that is the way he has designed numerous bridges. They pass code, have been permitted dozens of times in VA, and someone before me judged them acceptable compromises among many factors. My point is that 300' of this plain horizontal rail 52" high is going to look boring. Can it be made more visually interesting?

I am looking for ideas that look more attractive. If someone has an idea for more attractive I will submit to engineer and see if he can make it meet code and get permitted. I can't use advice on balancing climbing hazard vs bike crashing into the rail hazard, what the deck is to be made from and how, etc. I will have no say in the matter. Looks. I am looking for ideas on looks.

Footnote....

Barry Irby

Bill reinforced my comment about horizontal railing elements. They are dangerous and at one point I thought they were "outlawed" on deck rails. Recently I started to see the rails with thin stainless steel cables. They can be attractive because they can be nearly invisible. I checked with the local county and they are legal even though they are horizontal. They have to be stretched very tight or kids can squeeze through. Wonder if the stainless is in danger of being stolen by scrappers?

I recently acquired some stainless tubing that is half inch. I think it's fuel line. It's twenty feet long and apparently sell for about $5 a piece. I think it might be too flimsy for pickets. More sturdy SS tubing was VERY expensive. I might look into copper water pipe. Type K might be rigid enough and maybe type L but again might be attractive to scrappers.

Bill, I just sent you an e-mail forwarded from my cyclist friend. Well, it's a woman I used to sort of know, actually knew her fairly well, Oh what the heck, She's my ex-wife. We get along much better now that she lives in another state.

Re: Safety clarifiction

George Koch

Bill, how about a "cover bridge" section on one of the center spans. A place where users could seek some shelter if bad weather comes suddenly.

Jazzing up

Dick Coers

Re: Jazzing up with lights too

Dick Coers

Re: Safety clarifiction

Dick Coers

Another idea; Are there any steel fabricators with laser, plasma torch, or water jet machines in the area? Their off fall can be 4'x8' sheets of heavy steel with all kinds of cut out shapes removed. Just a skeleton left on the sheet, but they make very interesting fences or railings. Looks similar to this but the sheets are their scrap, not a designed pattern.

Re: some ideas...

Henry (Raleigh NC)

That is what I thought you were asking Bill. Of course cost constraints aren't evident here, so all ideas are of course subject to those.

Relatively low cost ideas:

Across that span, anything with identical railings the entire length might get boring. Alternating sections vertical pickets with sections of horizontal rails - and adding a few diagonal ones - would break up the monotony and still have enough repetition that builders could make it efficiently. Of course anything but linear designs do add a waste/materials-usage/cost factor, as well as adding build complexity.

Even making segments different lengths would help - 4' of verticals, 8' of horizontals, and some 6' diagonals (laid out for materials usage).

Of course post spacing and the engineering of side-load/push requirements are factors that your experienced bridge designer fellow can certainly assess.

More (costly?) ideas?

As some one that 'never' makes a project without curves somewhere - I would choose to add two or three panels on each side that had more artistic designs incorporated - perhaps the 'Trail logo' or a state symbol, or just more abstract art panels (painted on glass panels).

Make it an art installation in itself - Have an art competition for state artists (annually? not necessarily permanently) to have their panel (on glass or other panels) installed for that year. Raleigh did that for 6 buses to be painted, but I believe also for bus shelters (I have a friend who won one of each I think, at least one of the buses).

Make a center (over the river?) section that has a cantilevered (rounded) bump-out with benches as mid-way stop or viewing place. Or two of these on each side?

- Add a 'non-structural arch' here and there, or a few.

- add one or more covered sections - as a refuge from the rain, and a design opportunity (have a post and arch design, across the bridge, rather than typical gable roof contruction).

Add a few benches a various intervals across the span with clear glass panels to see down the river - and/or do these in a bumpout.

You could do all of these... to make a signature bridge, you do need more than the pictured horizontal railings. I agree with your premise.

Henry

Re: Jazzing up

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

That may be out of place in SW Virginia.