Hard Maple for new Workbench

Re: Hard Maple for new Workbench

Mark Nowicki

What I think you are missing is that the price of the top is a small part of the total cost.

The vises alone add up to about $850.

Your bench top is about 52 board feet, even at $10/BF it is not a project stopper.

FWIW, a quick search finds 8/4 maple for $5.95/BF (Cherokee Lumber in CA)

One of the results using woodfinder.com and zip code 80132;

https://paxtonwood.com/denver/

Re: Hard Maple for new Workbench

John in NM

Alpine Builder's Supply in Santa Fe had some 12/4 hard maple when I was there last weekend. Didn't check the price but you can give them a call to find that out. They typically have a good stock of 8/4 woods of all common species, but its always good to call ahead if you have a long drive to get there (as I do).

I'm not sure I understand your plan though. My approach would be to worry about getting the edge joints nice and tight and then plane the whole thing flat once it was glued up. It's a workout but not bad, takes an hour or two depending on how much you need to remove and how confidently you can use winding sticks.

6 foot laminations

Jim Matthews

If you are determined to build your own consider Douglas Fir, the older the better.

Otherwise, laminating two industrial tops together will save considerable time in final flattening. I built my first two benches and bought the one I've used nearly 10 years.

https://www.mcmaster.com/maple-workbench-tops/

https://www.butcherblock.com/product/work-station-top/#

Re: Hard Maple for new Workbench

Cameron

I just finished mine early summer and ran into similar sourcing issues even though I live in the heart of the hardwood area (WV). I called around to a lot of the mills and finally found some maple but it ended up being >3 hours drive and pretty expensive (I can't even imagine how much it would cost from Woodcraft...) Along the way I found sources for alternatives and ultimately ended up scoring a rather large lot of 12/4 ash for less then what the bare minimum amount of maple would have cost and it was only 20 min away (I now have enough ash to probably make 2 more tops in my basement and since the beetle has killed off almost all of it some day it will be worth a lot of $.) My suggestion would be to keep an open mind of wood species as there are other options than maple (I even found 12/4 cherry for a fraction of the cost of maple) that will work just as well. I've seen a few write ups of people putting end joints in the middle of the bench and it seemed to work out but considering all the work that goes into making a bench I personally would look at those areas every time I used my bench and be mad at myself for "half a$$ing it" which is a personal problem for me

8-). If this is your last bench I'd suggest getting full length boards for both aesthetics as well as ease of assembly and planing. You can get some shipped in or think about a road trip to IN/KY/OH/WV/PA...

Re: Hard Maple for new Workbench

AZ in Colorado Springs

My bench is made from douglas fir that I got really cheap. My suggestion to that end is to use a secondary wood, such as douglas fir, for everything below the bench top.

I don't think you need finger joints for gluing up shorter sticks in the top. I do this kind of thing on panels. I just make a scarf joint, angled about 10° or so, and butt the adjacent pieces together tightly. There's enough long glue contact on both edges to hold everything together. I just try not to use this technique on the outside boards -- they run full length if possible.

Can't help with other local sources, unless you can buy wholesale at Wellco at the south end of Colorado Springs.

various thoughts on the bench

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I am starting to build a cabinetmakers workbench. Why and to do what? The why, is it to be functional or a piece of shop furniture to outlet your creative woodworking energy? If functional I have lots of suggestions. If the goal is to be able to make some style of bench I have less suggestions that you will be interested in.

So far the plans are for final dimensions of 6'6" by 24" by 4 inch thick hard maple. Length and width reasonable. Unnecessarily thick, no need to use maple. A non grainy wood for the top has advantages but inexpensive oak or ash for the bottom is fine. This top will be unnecessarily expensive and hard to build if made 4" thick.

Leg vice Trendy in hobby shops. One has to ask why they disappeared from shops for decades if they are as functional as the current advocates claim. This vice arrangement suggests you are setting up to have fun doing hand tool work the way it was done way in the past. If that is the goal then the choices are determined. If you are going to make furniture for grandchildren a quick action Record vice is a better choice or maybe one on each end of the bench.

I have not found enough hard maple to do the top. That is about like saying I'm stumped with my reloading because I can't find a 25 pound container of rifle powder locally. From the perspective of someone that sold hardwood lumber for decades it astonishes me that hobby woodworkers rely on the places they do for hardwood lumber. I am confident that between Colorado Springs and Denver there is 5000 bdft of hard maple. Problem, how to find it? In addition to all the places that one goes to find sources, stop by a couple of cabinet shops and ask where they buy lumber. There will be at least 10 places between those cities set up to sell 100 bdft quantities (to pick a number) of hardwood lumber to shops. Use your business licence (tax #) to gain entry if you must.

The first used a premade 2 1/4 inch top. I don't like that now. Why will help answer other questions relevantly.

sister between two solid pieces. no need to finger joint, just butt.

I am aiming towards several glueups. 4 each of 3 boards. Then glue pairs of those together and then the final glue up. The first glueups are aimed at being 6 inches wide or less so I can flatten them on my 6 inch jointer. I have many Bessey k-body clamps and other clamps. reasonable strategy. Better alternative would be to convince a shop to run it through their 24" planer of belt sander.

titebond best choice

What am I missing if anything? experience handling a glue up this huge and heavy. The sub units will have no give so they will have to be jointed perfectly to make the glue joint. I could not do it on a 6" jointer.

finding lumber sources

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

In addition to asking where local shops buy lumber, ask at a local club. How to find a club? They will have member discounts at places like Woodcraft.

Join a club and get help with glue up.

BTW, maple is manufactured in 12/4 and 16/4 thickness. We special ordered it occasionally. You might luck out and find that a large supplier had one or the other on hand, or in some other species.

Buying from a wholesaler

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

In this context I mean a business selling 100 bd quantities +/- to cabinet shops. (We will not have access to the real wholesaler manufacturing and selling packs and truckloads of lumber.) Places catering to these local shops are selling to a customer that is familiar with buying hardwood lumber. The customer knows what to expect, has realistic expectations, normally orders by grade and has the supplier pull lumber to fill the order and likely deliver it. Interaction time can be a minute or two if they deliver, 15 for a pick up.

The more a small volume buyer can emulate their typical customer the more likely they will sell to an individual. Fact, these business won't make enough off small volume customers to compensate for dealing with someone with unrealistic expectations, wanting to sort through a 1000 bd ft pack of lumber to get exactly what they need.

Now that we no longer sell lumber I occasionally have to buy from one of these businesses in places where they don't know me. I arrive with the attitude that I realize the business will be doing me a favor to sell me a few boards FAS1F grade 8/4 maple at $3.50 bdft instead of $8.

I once needed 2- 8/4 ash planks with tight growth rings, not common in southern ash. I was at the wholesale division of Atlanta Hardwoods, fortunately at a slack time. Straight away I told the salesman that I had a piddly need and they might not want to bother with me. After some chatting he went and fetched about a 1000 bdft pack of 8/4 ash on the tines of a fork lift. The tight ringed pieces I wanted were buried. Again, I allowed that it might not be worth their bother to dig out boards buried in the stack. He accommodated digging.

Whoever had assembled this pack didn't do a good job; it was a mess. I insisted, lets re-pile this mess. In short order we repacked the 1000 bdft in a tidy pack. The salesman was in awe. He told me a customer had never offered to help restack before. Next, I offered that since this was a tiny order and he had gone to a lot of trouble I understood that I should not be paying wholesale price. He handed me the invoice and it was about $2.50 bdft. Skids greased for a future visit if necessary.

Re: Hard Maple for new Workbench

Dick Coers

In my opinion, no one needs a 4” thick hard maple bench top. You can work on a 2” thick top with a sledge hammer a never really hurt it. I made a 2” top with the outside boards 4” wide. Hard maple can be so brittle and machining can really produce the chip out. Mine is a combination or red oak and walnut.

Excellent advice...

John in NM

A guy in the shop I worked for used to go pick through soft maple on his lunch hour, looking for curly pieces for the extensive trim & cabinets he was making for his house.

The yard didn't mind because he did exactly the kind of thing you mention - viewed it as a favor to be returned in kind, perhaps many times over if he could. They would leave him with the open unit and some sleepers to restack on, and things were as neat as could be when he was done.

I've found that if you have this kind of approach, they are even happy to see you show up again - you are an interesting diversion in a dull day of assembling bulk orders

Re: Hard Maple for new Workbench

John Pappas

https://austinhardwoods.com

Might call this place....pretty big operation.

Re: Hard Maple for new Workbench

Brian gunsmith From colorado

The half-assing comment is one that has haunted me in this question. Laminating the width is one thing but the length just wouldn't seem right. Especially since I want this to be a really good bench.

Consider me chased off of finger jointing the pieces together.

ash ?

Yonak

I agree with the others who suggest you consider other species, other than maple, for everything under the top. I would think the qualities of ash would make for fine legs, unless you happen to have a water on the floor problem in your shop.

Re: Hard Maple for new Workbench *LINK*

Hank Knight

When I built my bench 16 years ago, I dreaded the idea of wrestling a big glue-up for the bench top in my tiny shop. So I took a short cut. I ordered a 24" X 72" 3" thick Bally Block laminated, unfinished maple countertop and used that as the starting place for my bench top. I glued 4" thick dog hole strips on each side and finished with 4" X 4" breadboard ends. It is rock solid and very heavy. If you look on the Bally Block web site (link below), you find that you can order custom laminations to your specifications, up to 48" wide, 144" long and 6" thick. You can get it unfinished with square edges - basically a raw laminated slab (it is flat and has been through a wide belt sander). It's easy to customize it for your bench top. It saved me a ton of work and has made a wonderful bench.

In this end view, the lamination appears to be less than 3" thick. That's because half of the tenon for the breadboard end has already been cut on the bottom of the lamination. It's a full 3" thick.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2jyDWmY][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/2jyDWmY]131AF348-30DF-4733-B135-7FA476D57905_4_5005_c[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158680038@N03/]Hank Knight[/url], on Flickr

[url=https://flic.kr/p/247Ywuq][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/247Ywuq]IMG_1221[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158680038@N03/]Hank Knight[/url], on Flickr


Bally Block

Re: various thoughts on the bench

Brian gunsmith From colorado

I always wanted a hard maple bench.

Size and shape are for my shop size and desire to practice hand work.

Started plans back 25 plus years.

I have hard maple material for the legs.

At this point I have the lie-nielsen tail vise which suggests best installation with a 4 inch top.

I would like a solid top not some variable thickness top.

I have no business license. In terms of business to business, I don't have that option anymore.

I retired end of 2016 from gunsmithing.

I had visited two lumber stores that had hard maple. The question is which ones are worth visiting and which ones are repeats of the others. IE smaller boards or much more expensive wood.

The main thing that I did not really enumerate in my OP clearly was that I was disappointed by the yield of the boards that I saw relative to what I needed. I need 7' by 4.5 inch by 2 inch and I was seeing 10' by 7 inch by 2 inch with wane and other "lesser features". The yield would be poor. The waste from that board included a 3' by 7" piece and a 7' by 2.5 less kerf piece. Only the 7' by 2.5 piece could be used in a glueup. But I don't really need many 3' pieces. I would pay for 11.66 board feet of wood but only use 5.25 bd feet of that board. If I did not already have the legs already cut the 3' pieces would be great leg material.

1. My main need of my OP was to see if anyone had any names of good companies they experienced in the area.

2. did it make any sense to think about finger gluing shorter wider pieces to use offcuts as a means to get better yield.

All this was premised on the concept that I did not already have enough 8/4 hard maple to make the top. In my early search several weeks back, I found only a couple boards. Still needed much.

Today, I re-searched my wood pile and found more 8/4 pieces including some 9 inch wide pieces. That would give better yield. Also some 4/4 pieces I could get 2 inch thick out of. So I will still need more wood but I am getting there.

I still am aiming for 4 inch thick top. I like the leg vise. I had considered a shoulder vise initially. But have drifted from that path. Looked at the twin screw face vise by lie-nielsen. I don't want that record type vise. So it was twin screw or leg vise. I am also planning on making a moxon type vise sort of dovetailing fixture to help with that angle.

When I look at why a vise is not used anymore, I don't find that a credible line as many different vises are available. There are several companies that sell leg vises and some can be made using hardware similar to that used to make a shoulder vise. A simple metal vise attached with a simple chop would be much simpler for someone to mount. That doesn't make it better. Just simpler. I don't see any one vise type as being that much better than any other type. I have been studying different bench and vise designs as seen on youtube and other media. I like the choice I have made.

Motivations and suggestions

Jim Matthews

Realizing a longterm goal is a worthy pursuit.

Let none of us deter your ambition.

That said Bill really does know his way around a shop.

****

Your shop space is the only real limit on workbench size.

The confines determine easy movement around the bench.

I constantly snagged a belt loop, or spilled the contents of my pockets moving around the leg vise, particularly while planing.

Most of us that *had* a leg vise, and removed it found them temperamental due to humidity swings, which may not be a problem on the high mesa.

I replaced mine with a permanently mounted Moxxon vise.

It never jams, and edge planing long boards (50 inches is the longest to date) is no fuss.

It's ideal for sawing, up to 30" wide panels.

Now I can help better

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Maple logs don't run large. I would rarely find a 10" wide piece in a 1000 bdft pack. 5-8" wide going to be typical. So, you will need to reassemble your ripping cut offs into 4 " wide pieces. Easy enough compared to what you will be facing gluing up the top.

Most common pack length will be 12', bad news for your waste issue. But, 8' packs of maple are not uncommon. Perfect for you needs. 14' lumber is rare as hen's teeth. Logs are cut 16, 12 or 8' , 99% of the time. There will be a small amount of 14' in a 16' pack of lumber as a result of end trimming after sawing but these long lengths don't often appear at what was our step in the food chain.

There will be several places in Denver and Colorado Springs that sell 100 +/- bdft quantities of hardwood. They will all stock 8/4 maple and they are likely to have 8' packs. Tell them you run a small furniture making business and that you need some 8'- 8/4 maple. Do the initial contact by phone and act like you are not a novice at buying lumber. "Hello, I am Brian at Monument Woodworking. I normally work Fir but I have a job where I need some 8/4 FAS1F or Select grade maple in 8' lengths. Does not have to be white. Got it? How much bdft". Fine set me out XXX pieces, will be by to pick it up tomorrow. "

If you aim to do woodworking you will need raw material. The "waste" from this project is raw material for the next. There is no such thing as waste in hardwood in a small shop. It all gets used down the road. Get over fretting about buying 50% more than you can squeak by with if you could find the perfect sizes. By buying up the food chain you will make up for buying less efficient sizes in price.

Vice- Disclaimer, I know nothing about leg vises. For building furniture a quick action vise is a time saver and aggravation avoider. If building furniture you will be adjusting the span of the jaws constantly. I worked in a shop that had a non- quick action vise and I thought I might slit my wrists in frustration screwing the jaws back and forth to grab stuff.

Assembling a top this size will be a daunting task for a well equipped shop with experience. Be sure you have not bit off more than you can chew. Finding lumber is the least of your worries. You might explore hiring a shop with a 24" planer or 30" belt sander to assemble the top. With a wide machine to finish the slab I could make this top in 2 hours shop time.

How do you aim to trim the ends?

Re: various thoughts on the bench

Wiley Horne

Hi Brian,

A wonderful project, and you are right not to compromise on your vision. Cause it will always be stuck in your craw if you do.

I bought my benchtop from Highland Hdwe. in Atlanta, similar to what Hank was suggesting with Bally Block.

The thing that stands out in my mind about a DIY glue-up, is that you’ll do yourself a big favor by maintaining very close alignment of the top surface at each step. Think of it: if there are 10 boards (just to pick a number) making up the main raft of the top, if 1 of those boards is 1/16” low in one place, you’ll be taking the entire raft down by 1/16”—that’s a huge amount of planing. Which can be avoided.

Suggestion: All boards making up the raft lunchbox planed to same depth (4”). And to consistent thickness (not same thickness, but each board thickness planed). Glue up by 1’s. A to B, then add C, then add D—to maintain control as you go. If you finish up by gluing 4 to 4 say, they might make a slight V rather than being flat across. If you go +1 at each step, you can keep control as you go. Use biscuits or splines (I’d use biscuits) to maintain alignment. Just set up the joiner—or router fence if using splines—and keep that setting throughout the project, and reference off the same face—top face, say—as you glue each new board onto the raft.

Goal: Finish up with a top surface very close to flat. Avoid having any low place in the raft. An alternative to the suggestion above would be to make a torsion box the same footprint as the raft, and during glue-up strap each new entry board down to the torsion box—each board forced into flatness.

Final thought: Back to Bally Block....the edge of the bench is truly the working surface. It’s where all the action takes place. If the raft part is to be enclosed in edge boards, do you really care who glues up the interior?

Wiley

Bill : always the pragmatist .. thank you !

weight

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Are you aware that the finished top will weigh about 175 pounds?

Glue up strategy

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

glue up several boards at a time to make a sub assembly. Advantage-quicker, but not compellingly so. Problem- need perfect jointing of glue edge of sub assemblies for they will not be flexible. A daunting task on a 6" jointer considering the length and weight. I am not confident I could do it without adjustment with a hand plane.

glue up one plank at a time- easy to get registration doing one at a time even without splines. 8/4 this length will be flexible enough that with adequate clamps each new board will pull tight against the assembly. Problem- will need slight leveling in the end by hand plane or sander. Another problem, the 4" edge will likely not be straight in the end. I made my 3" bench this way.

Re: Now I can help better

Brian gunsmith From colorado

Much of the time Bill, you give good advice. But the part where you advise me to misrepresent myself to a local lumber company is unacceptable and would constitute fraud. That would be dishonorable!!!

The very concept must be ignored as incompetent and immoral. (I apologize to our host.)

As for the vise, the benchcrafted leg vise moves very smoothly and quick.

For it has a metal screw and nuts. The old ones were made with wood screws and wood nuts.

I intend to cut the ends with a chopsaw and true them with a router and plane.

By the way for the glue ups I have a Delta DJ-15 which is the long bed 6 inch jointer.

Each of the 4 pieces I will wind up with will weigh according to your estimate less than 50 pounds.

The front piece which is the most important will weigh less as it will be 1 foot shorter as I must cut off the part for the tail vise. The rest of the front piece will have holes cut for the square bench dogs. So it will be even less than the 50 pounds.

Welcome to the hardwood lumber industry

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

From the logger to the wholesaler (no experience with retailer) "successful" participants go on to be used car dealers, except for the loggers. Loggers is where the successful used car dealers are promoted. Just focusing on the wholesalers (the companies we bough packs of lumber from) we have been shorted on tally (common when some species is tight), lower grade lumber in a graded pack (common), improperly dried in a multitude of ways, look similar species slipped into packs, thickness planing errors.....I could go on. I take my grading stick and leave my halo back in the shop when dealing in the hardwood lumber industry.

Brian, I am late to the party, But...

Barry Irby

There is a young man on You Tube named Matt Cremona who built himself a bandsaw mill capable of sawing a 6' diameter log. Mostly urban salvage. He has hooked up with a guy with a vacuum kiln. He is selling slabs for workbenches that are either four or six inches thick and big enough you would only need two, I think.

Might give him a look see.