Shapton 16000 grit

better options...

David Weaver

the 12000 shapton cream (which I believe is approximately 0.2 micron larger in particle size or thereabouts) is 3 times as much abrasive as the glasstones and costs about $55 in japan. We're not in japan, but you can find them on ebay fairly often for $70-$80 including shipping. (there's one on ebay for $77.50 as I type this, inclusive of shipping).

Shapton and their distribution have always (just my opinion) treated us in the united states like we may never find out that they're half the price in japan.

(i have used both of the above mentioned stones, of course, as well as the 30k glasstone, though I was never tempted to buy the latter. I bought the 16k and sold it pretty quickly when I realized that it was very minimally different than the cream stone). Just my opinion, but I think those stones were a ruse on foreign buyers, as was their claim that if you bought a cream stone from the japanese market that it might craze because they were formulated for different climates or some such thing. )

Re: better options...

Paul grover

I already ordered the stone. I have used the 3M vinyl 16000;grit and was happy with it, just wanted something more durable.

hi paul...my mistake..

David Weaver

..I thought when i saw the message earlier today that I was over in the hand tool section where we get more crabby about very specific things like sharpening stones....

my gripe was a bit too demanding for the general (messages) side, just as we'd be more like "what's the big deal?" in a discussion about different TS blades over on the HT side.

In Case of Crabs

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

There's medication for that

But I have to wonder. . . I've been putting dangerous edges on steel for a lot of decades. I've never needed more than my hard Arkansas to put a razor edge on my carving chisels such that they'd leave the cut surface polished. "16,000" grit and "x-many microns" is so far out of my experience that I see these posts and can't figure "why?" Are you guys comparing edges under microscopes just to see who can get closer to the size of the metal's molecules?

I couldn't answer that....

David Weaver

..it's almost as hard to figure out as it is to answer why we make furniture for our houses.

inevitably, someone will say they do to save money.

I don't know anyone who has picked up woodworking and saved money by doing it. Why do we do it?

Over on the HT side, we'd be pickier about stones like above (which one to get) because you're likely to use your stone a lot more often over there and that's the area that we play around in - the hand stuff. But I used to view the TS blade articles and reviews about the same way you may with the stones - each TS blade I've bought has cut wood. What's the big deal? I've never finished a project with extra wood hanging off of the side because a cheap TS blade (or one that was overpriced and not as good as promised) left a partial cut.

(a hard arkansas is a fine and lovely stone, by the way. I use the microscope to separate things for testing, but often do my woodworking with a washita stone. Most professional woodworkers a century and a half ago never had something as fine as a hard arkansas ...

....why do you need such a fine stone )

Just kidding.

But even hasluck's carving book from the early 1900s more or less says that it's not a necessary item (due to cost).

That brings the real answer. Why do we buy a finer stone than we need? Why do we look at edges under microscopes when comparing things (I don't generally do it for myself except to grade japanese stones and sharpen straight razors that I'm selling). We do it because we like it. It satisfies something. Probably not our spouses, though.

That was restrained

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

When you threw that gauntlet down I thought, this will be interesting.

Get David gong on what he knows about sharpening and a PhD thesis on sharpening could follow.... Like I said, that was restrained. You didn't get the results of days of work and thousands of feet of wood planed to prove that sharper last longer.

What could then follow is the results of years of experimentation resulting in the quickest way to get there, and if there is interest the steps along the way. Check out the work being reported on the Hand Tool Forum on using a buffer to establish a Weaver Bevel that will turn an inexpensive chisel into one that performs like the best. There is a video.

If there is a Maven of sharpening it would be David.

at least you called me a maven...

David Weaver

.and not a maiden!!

the real answer to all of this stuff is sometimes I'm left thinking about woodworking away from the shop. I work mostly by hand and like pondering things that make it "feel better" and work more efficiently.

I couldn't say much about sharpening on this side of the forum as I doubt anyone sweats extra drops due to plane design or sharpening methods.

Kind of like me and tablesaw blades. I recall the in thing 15 years ago being a database comparing tablesaw blades, debates on how often they need to be sharpened (one person telling me that TS blades are dull in 100 feet and you should have a stack and add them up and send them back to the manufacturer to resharpen when you get a pile that has sharpened that distance).

Now, I know the 100 feet thing is farce, but I'm sure when how well your TS is working affects how well you work and your effort level and enjoyment....that's the buzz for some people.

I haven't ever dulled a TS blade enough for resharpening, but I did manage to dull two circular saw blades cutting corian in a track saw. Ruined my streak.

Checking edges under a microscope for used japanese stones and then sorting and selling was just a matter of ethics. The world of used and new japanese stones (natural type) isn't exactly the most precise and ethical thing ever, and many of the used stones that are relatively boring looking are the best (often better on average than newly retailed stones by a long shot and at 1/4th or 1/3rd of the cost. To be able to prove it and pass them along at cost and let a little air out of the tires of the mystics is kind of fun.

Distance Matters

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

for a woodworker. I get that. But as a carver, swinging a 30oz maul to drive a 45-50mm spoon gouge, it's much less an issue. The day always ended with resharpening my chisels. Good example was this

8' diameter globe made as part of the community playground build. The globe was made up of 2x6 PTSYP "bricks" trimmed from the cut-offs on the rest of the build. Took me a good two weeks to carve. The oceans were chisel carved with land cut with a power planner. A deep blue oil stain was added to the water and then sealed. When the sun hit early in the morning it flashed off the polished cut faces left by the chisels and looked like actual water.

BTW, that's me in the middle. The mallet was given to me after the local priest asked me why it was taking so long as "The Lord created our world in less than 6 days." I replied, "Well, Father, I'm betting he had a bigger hammer."

Re: Distance Matters

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

swinging a 30oz maul to drive a 45-50mm spoon gouge

if ever there was an application for the Weaver bevel this is it

Da "Weaver" What?

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

My chisel bevels have been shaped with a convex surface and just a hair of a back-bevel for 55 years. As a carver, I wanted the infinite number of leverage points to control my cuts. Hollow-ground steel is great for razors, plane irons, and such, but the control I get with a convex bevel is unmatched.

Re: better options...

Frank M

Hello all,

I took a long break from WoodCentral and it is great to see all the lively discussion!

I have been using Spyderco ceramic stones (medium and ultra fine) followed with green compound on planed maple as Derek posted in the past. I hallow ground on 180 grit CBN wheels prior to stones. I generally like the results, but wished for a finer stone a few times and also would prefer slightly wider stones for those cases where I intent to use a honing guide (only for bevel up plane blades). So, I started looking into other ceramic stones as I really like the splash and go (without soaking in water prior to use) as well as low wear aspects.

I was looking into Shapton glass stones as they are also advertised to be splash and go without need for soaking as well as low wear. Are Shapton Korumaku stones (sold on Amazon) similar to glass stones in those respects? How do they compare to Shapton glass stones as well as Spyderco stones? Surely, I would not want to pay any more than necessary to get the results.

Appreciate your feedback.

Re: better options...

Paul grover

I like the ready to go of the shapton 16000 grit stone used in place of stroping.I use a Lie Neilson jig. Paul

Different bevel from Weaver

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The Weaver Bevel strengthens the first few thousandths of an inch of an otherwise flat bevel. The flat bevel remains profiled for penetration. Result- easy penetration, lessens dulling by the otherwise weak edge folding or chipping when the chisel is used for chopping mortises or dovetail waste. It is a game change for chisels with steel less than optimum hardness and toughness.

Loose abrasive on Corian alternative

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

There is some interesting work being reported on Hand Tool Forum. For many years now some of us have been using 1 micron diamond paste on cast iron for final sharpening stage. Diamond is blazing fast and cheap. The limitation is obtaining a flat piece of cast iron (must be cast iron to optimally embed the diamonds).

Recently Corian has been investigated as the substrate and the results look promising. A scrap piece of Corian and a $15 syringe of 1 micron diamond paste and one has what will likely be a lifetime means of putting the final edge on a plane blade or chisel.

Coarser diamonds can be used for more aggressive material removal. 15 micron is adequate as the next step after hollow grinding on a wheel. 30 micron good for flatening.

Re: better options...

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Hi Frank

I imagine that it would be difficult to better green compound on hardwood as the final stone. That is approximately 0.5micron.

The Spyderco stones are my "travel set" - although I use them in my workshop very frequently, usually when I am too lazy to prepare my other set of stones. Just a spritz of soapy water, and they are ready to go.

The other set of stones is quicker to sharpen, and the final stone leaves a blade ready to use: Shapton Pro 1000; Sigma 6000 and 13000. These are hard stones which also require just a spritz, but they are not hard like the Spyderco - which I check for flat once a year, and have not needed to flatten for some years - and so the Sigma need to be lapped before use.

I really like these Sigmas. They are preferred to the equivalent stones from Shapton (Pro 5000 and Pro 12000) which I have and used for some years. I disliked the 5000 intensely (it would glaze over very quickly) and the Pro 12000 did not cut as fast as the Sigma 13000, especially on PM-V11. The Shapton Pro 1000 is a gem.

There may be better stones than these out there, but I do not know or really care to look. They do the job well enough for my satisfaction.

Regards from Perth

Derek

bill calls it the weaver bevel...

David Weaver

..i'm hoping that it gets another name because I'm sure a million people have done it.

I've used and appreciated the type of bevel you're talking about for depth/touch on non-flat surfaces, though.

I'm hoping we can rename the bevel "it's been done before but nobody named it" bevel.

it doesn't give depth control, though - since that's not really needed on a flat chisel - it's intended to just do everything a little better than a flat bevel and make cheap chisels work well in hardwoods.

Ah-ha

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Is this like a secondary bevel to remove the wire edge and leave a bit more "meat" behind the working edge?

Re: better options...

Frank M

Paul, does Shapton glass require regular flattening or is it hard (like Spyrderco) that it pretty much does not require any or much at all?

Re: Loose abrasive on Corian alternative

Frank M

This is definitely a compelling option that I have not tried in the past. For now, I am looking more into low maintenance stones, but who knows I may end up going down this diamond paste rabbit hole too :-)

David is too modest

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The knife community calls this edge a "convex edge". I heard about it for knives more than a decade ago but never extrapolated to what it would do for a chisel edge in spite of suffering edge failure in chisels.

David discovered what it would do to strengthen the edge of chisels even made of crummy steel, without sacrificing penetration. The patent examiner (me ) was unable to find any prior disclosure of this invention so until someone provides evidence of this edge profile being disclosed by others it will remain the Weaver Bevel. Its application in my hands is for a chisel that is struck, particularly for chopping out dovetail waste, or mortises.

Read some of the results of using it on the Hand Tool Forum. If you even dulled a chisel by the edge microchipping or deforming while chopping out a mortise or dovetail this edge will likely eliminate the problem. I dovetailed 5 ash drawers with a $10 Narex chisel and the edge looked the same as it did when I started.

It is a tiny secondary bevel but not a flat secondary bevel. Rather it is a convex profile. David achieves it with a buffer. I was able to replicate it by rocking the tool 5-10 degrees up for a few strokes on a "stone" (1 micron diamond plate). The bevel is somewhere in the neighborhood of only 0.010" wide, just a glint on an otherwise flat or hollow ground bevel when it catches the light. David's video explains it all in detail.

Re: Loose abrasive on Corian alternative

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The diamond proposal would be considered a no maintenance, cheap "stone". I was told the diamond charged cast iron plates used for diamond faceting last decades. I have used my cast iron plates for sharpening for more than a decade. I haves used maybe $5 of paste and there is no change in the cast iron.

Corian could wear somewhat faster, but it is too soon to tell. Cheap date to try.

Re: better options...

Paul grover

It does recruiter flattening. This is what Rob Cossmann uses. I think the definition of a sharp edge is the point where 2 highley polished edges meet. The 16000 grit shire makes the edged shine.

spyderco vs. shapton

David Weaver

spyderco's stones are pretty much like a tightly controlled ceramic mug. The whole thing seems to me to be fused alumina or whatever the method of making may be. It's closely graded and the particles aren't that small (3-5 microns), but when packed together like they are, they wear extremely slowly and behave with more fineness than their rating (especially when worn and devoid of manufacturing or milling marks.

Shaptons use a abrasive in something that seems more like a soft resin (a hard resin like epoxy may wear slower), but maybe i'm misled by the abrasive making it feel softer - it could be hard.

Whatever the case, the binder still does release abrasive (more slowly than a soft stone) and they aren't kind of a permanent fixture like spyderco - which generally releases nothing. some of the shapton stones don't flatten well with sandpaper and diamond hones are a good idea to keep them flat and to keep them fresh if whatever you're sharpening doesn't expose fresh abrasive as fast.

if you ever get a new spyderco that's got deep milling marks, then you really get a good lesson in how hard they are (some of the recent fine and UF have had circular swirls in them that are deep - I got one - it is slow going to flatten them).

Re: Ah-ha

David Weaver

kind of leaving the meat only at the working edge and trying to remove anything else that's not absolutely necessary to support it.

This is the preferable way to sharpen a thin knife, too - leave too much support for insurance and penetration (or the exciting feel of just falling through vegetables) is gone.

Leave too little, and the edge becomes to sustain small chips if anything at all less than ideal is done with the knife.

The challenge with knives is to do as little as possible to eliminate the small chips entirely so that the knife feels like one that's got nothing but a thin long bevel.

in the context of chopping half blinds, this feels like:

* comparing a chisel like this - probably 4 or 5 strikes for each leaf that would require 6 or 7 strikes with a typical flat bevel or longer microbevel

* no edge damage other than wear or very little, far less sensitivity to type of wood worked

* a fraction of the time spent sharpening (both in number and duration in sharpening time), and a sharper feel through use

this is all driven by laziness. And for someone who doesn't do a lot of "chopping of the half blind waste", etc, I think the potential payoff won't make sense.

Just like chasing the perfect TS and blade combination - I plane all of the edges that ever come off of a TS (when I ever use one). It's hard for me to chase the unicorn "glue line blade" when I'm not ripping enough glue lines that don't get glued, anyway.