How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Bruce Schoenleber

I prefer a well tuned radial arm saw.

Re: Festool Domino

William Duffield

I used to make them with a tablesaw and a Powermatic hollow chisel mortiser. I would never flip the tenon board to cut the second cheek. Always cut both cheeks from the same reference surface. The Bridge City Tools Tenon Master helps a lot to get a consistent tenon width. Before I had a Tenon Master, I would do the final fitting of the cheeks (and shoulders) with Lie-Nielsen large shoulder plane.

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Bill, I follow a rule that is ingrained in those who predominantly use hand tools: always work from the same reference side. This means, the same gauge is used to mark mortices and mark tenons, and does so from the same face side.

This also means that tenons are cut from the reference side, and never flipped to cut from an opposing face.

Tenons are either sawn with a tenon saw or a band saw.

If you use the bandsaw, and set the first saw cut furthest from the fence, then place a spacer (the width of the mortice) against the fence for the second cut.

If you go down the bandsaw route, first saw the shoulders on the table saw, setting the length of the cheek with a stop.

Several years ago I designed a guide for a tenon saw. Although I mostly just saw freehand, sometimes I use the guide because it is fun. It is accurate and makes the task easy ...

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TenonGuide.html

Mortices may be made either before or after the tenons. It really does not matter since they are marked with the same gauge.

I sometimes chop out mortices with a mortice chisel and mallet. More often these days I use a router jig ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Barry Irby

I have agonized over the same problem.

For a frame and panel what I have done is cut the groove by flipping the pieces end for end, cutting from both sides, thus centering the groove.

I have cut a lot of mortises with a hollow chisel mortiser. Then cut the tenon with a tenon jig on the TS.

In every case that requires flipping the stock, I find stock prep to be of utmost importance. Run all the stock through the planer at he same time and at the same setting. And, It's important to cut the snipe off the ends of the pieces.

So, for your back panel I would have Cut the slots as mentioned above and cut the tenons and if they were a little loose I would have used epoxy.

I "would have" because I now have a Festool Domino. I would dry assemble the frame and run a router around it with a wing cutter.

I have also used a router with a spiral upcut bit to make the slots/mortises. I made lots of furniture with loose tenons using the router and various jigs.

Another thought I had was to take the two outside blades from your Dado set and make or have made a spacer to fit between them to create a tenon exactly the correct width for the two blades sandwiched.

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Bruce, a MN Galoot

Plunge router, using the fence and a Tage Frid holder type jig for the mortises.

Tablesaw jig that holds the rail vertically. I register off one face and don’t worry about whether they’re centered. The face is the only thing that counts, and if the stock is all the same thickness, they will turn out fine. It’s a little fiddly, but not that bad.

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

John McGaw

Doing a back like that is certainly worth the effort -- beats a bradded-in sheet

of plywood every time. How about forgetting the full-up M&T effort and do the

joint the same way most everybody does kitchen-cabinet doors: full-length slots in the stock to accept the infill panels and stub tenons sized to fit the slots? I have shaper cutters to do it but the slots work fine with a dado blade or router. Stub tenons, being short need less prep than long ones might and can be cut on a table saw or bandsaw or router table. Just don't overthink it -- you don't need a lot of strength for what you are proposing.

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Jim in Burlington Ont.

The way Norm made/taught them on NYW, I have not had any reason to change in 20+ years...

Take care, Jim

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

John in NM

All the ways you mention!

Best way I ever used was a tenon cutter on a shaper. We had a Robland combo machine in that shop that I mostly used once I got it's sliding table adjusted to be normal to the spindle. Another guy in that shop liked to use two small saw blades (8" maybe?) with a spacer between them on the regular shaper and a miter guide from one of the table saws. He had different spacers for the different thicknesses he needed. It was scary to watch, but sure worked well.

That shop also had a Multi-router that a lot of the guys liked to use. I found it kind of slow, and really loud, but it made nice tenons.

+1

Ellis Walentine

Set up your tablesaw or shaper (or router table) to cut 1/2" deep grooves in your frame members, and then make the tenons on the rails with router or shaper cutters. Do them each with one pass, i.e., set up the correct groove width and corresponding tenon thickness with your sawing and routing setups.

Ellis

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Lee Schierer in McKean, PA

I make the mortises first, then cut the tenons to fit. I do the shoulder cuts first and then cut the cheeks using my tenon cutter one face then flipping to cut the second face. I usually cut a scrap one first until I get the tenon thickness set on the tenoning jig.

Lee

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Hank Knight

Bill, it looks like everybody has their own favorite method for this. All work. I think you're right about sticking with one method until you master it. I've made several frame and panel backs and have settled on a method that works fort me. It appears to be a combination of steps others have mentioned in these posts.

First, stock prep is paramount. I run all of my stock through the planer at one sitting to make sure it is all dimensioned the same. Then I carefully set my mortise gauge to center the mark on the stock. Just to be on the safe side, I mark everything from the same face and Derek describes. I usually use 1/4" panels, or if I'm using raised panels, the panel lip is dimensioned to 1/4". I cut a groove in the rails and styles with a 1/4" slot cutter on my router table, making sure I register the workpiece on the table from the same face I marked from. I then cut mortices at the appropriate places using my hollow chisel mortiser and a 1/4" chisel/bit. I cut the tenons on the table saw with a tenoning jig. I don't flip the workpiece. Instead I again register each cut from the same face I marked from. I set the jig to cut one cheek of the tenon and cut all the pieces at the same setting. Then I set the jig for the other cheek and cut all the other pieces, registering from he same face of the workpiece. I always check my first tenon for fit and make any necessary minor adjustments before cutting the rest. I set a stop block on my tablesaw sled and cut all the shoulders. I find that if I'm careful with my initial marking and setting my fences for the cuts, I get a satisfactory fit the first time almost every time. Because the tolerances are so small, sharp cutters on your mortise gauge are critical, as is care in setting the cutters to the gauge lines.

Good luck. I think frame and panel backs are much nicer than nailed-on boards or plywood, and they add a lot of stability to the piece.

Hank

The problem with these suggestions,

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

,and I have tried them all, is that the accuracy of the M&T thickness and centering must be within a few 0.001th inch. It is difficult to adjust, even by trial and error, a table saw tenoning jig or a band saw fence in this kind of increment. Hence, my original use of "tedious" in describing what I have used in the past. Often for a few tenons it is just easier to make them fat and shoulder plane them into submission.

I am leaning toward referencing off one face and using a spacer to off-set the cut for the other cheek. At least with this approach the spacer can be prepared by trial and error to be perfect which will then require only the initial bandsaw fence setting to be tediously adjusted, or the tenon jig. At least my Delta jig is not at all easy to adjust in mini-steps. I have a spacer prepared for 1/4 and 5/16 tenons but getting the tenon centered is tedious, so much so that I didn't use it on this occasion. I think I can adjust easier the band saw fence. That approach I have not tried.

Now if anyone has tips on making the initial adjustment of fence or jig I would like to hear of them. Task- tenon is off center 0.010". Move fence or jig 0.005" to right......somehow.

Why Centered?

Bob Lang

I think we can get hung up on things that aren't that important and make things a lot more difficult than they need to be. You skipped by the solution-reference off one face for all of the joinery. If you try to cut the tenon cheeks by removing an equal amount from both sides, that means that every piece needs to be extremely precise and consistent. Possible but "teejus".

For this type of work I prefer to be off-center, and cut the tenons to fit the groove or mortise. I usually use a jig on the table saw that holds the work vertically as it goes over the blade and rides on the table saw fence. I set the distance for the first cheek cut directly from a scrap of a piece with the groove in it, make all of those cheek cuts, then reset the jig/fence to make the second cuts.

If I'm working with material I've thicknessed my 3/4" pieces will be somewhere between 1/32" and 1/16" too thick (I tend to stop removing material when I have two clean, flat faces). I put the edge of the groove 1/4" away from one face and make the groove 1/4" wide. These are easy numbers to hit, especially if you have a spacer and a cutter the right width.

The good thing about being off center is if you have invested some time to have show faces and hidden faces it will be obvious if you try to assemble something with the wrong side out. There might be some theoretical weakness in the joint but that's too insignificant to worry about.

Bob Lang

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Virgil Johnson

I have a modified Woodcraft tenoning fixture which I can set up quickly dial in very easily. I mounted a dial indicator on the base and reworked the adjusting screw to take out most of the backlash.

For cutting the tenons I work from one face and cut a piece of scrap to dial in the width measuring with dial calipers. First I saw the shoulders on the table saw (shameless plug for Forrest blades here) using a crosscut sled. No problems with fit or repeat ability 1 or 10.

Re: The problem with these suggestions,

William Duffield

The best spacer is the Bridge City TM-1 Tenonmaker.

https://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tm-1-tenonmaker-1417.html

However, it is a bit difficult to find one. There are places on the internet who will show you how to make your own.

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

William Duffield

Since there is no interaction between the tenons and the panel, there is no reason the groove needs to align with the mortises. Well, I guess cope and stick (stub tenon) joinery is the exception to this principle, but the only people who advocate cope and stick are the guys who would like to sell you a whole 'nother kitchen in seven years or so.

Re: The problem with these suggestions,

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I use a feeler gauge to move the tenon jig. Place a block of wood next to the fence, insert feeler gauge, to create a precise space, hold the block, and then move the jig to meet the block. This might be a Matthias Wandel trick. I can’t remember. I don’t worry about whether the mortise or tenon are centered, only that they match each other.

It just occurred to me that you could use a dial indicator to measure those adjustments.

I completely forgot...

John in NM

Don't worry about centering the tenon (I never have, especially when cutting things with machines).

Mark one side the face, cut them all referenced to the face, then set up your mortiser referenced to that same face. If the problem is really that the tenons are slightly skew to the rail surfaces, this won't correct that, but you don't have to worry about centering within a 32nd if you just plan it right.

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Mark Hennebury

Hi Bill,

There are many ways to make these joints depending on you, your equipment, budget, needs, wants, space, production, power supply etc.........so it is not an easy answer.

For both mortice and tenons there are many ways from handcutting with a handsaw to full cnc machinery.

For cutting tenons;

A banddsaw; not bad, quick and cheap but not really clean or overly accurate.

A tablesaw is cheap, quick, cleaner and more accurate.

A shaper with tenon cutters or sawblades and spacers.

A table router ( vertical spindle) is a good, quick, low budget, precise way to cleanup tenons cheeks to a finish size after rough cutting on the bandsaw. You can use the fence and or mitre gauge, and can do the cheeks alone or the cheeks and shoulders ( with a back board to prevent splitting)

You can use a horizontally mounted router. ( Best to rough-cut on the bandsaw to remove most material and just skim to size with the router.)

You can make a router jig to use a handheld router. If you make a jig to cut both sides it is better, faster, more precise. A simply jig from MDf with a spacer the thickness of your stock, so that your frame-stock fits sandwiched in between the two templates. you machine one side, then flip your jig over and machine the other side.

Industrial machines are the best of course, and would be glad to help if you were looking for machine options.

As many have mentioned accuracy and precision is mostly about how you work. Referencing, process, procedure and project management are critical.

Lots of great machines, but if you want to work with basic shop tools, tablesaw, routers and jigs are your best friend.

Machine cut joints;

Balestrini Mortiser

Maka swing chisel mortiser.

I have cut many joints with a tablesaw, and router jigs with high precision, its just very time consuming. The Balestrini and Maka mortisers for instance cut mortises like the ones pictured in less than 10 seconds and can repeat with the same precision as many times as you want.

Centering Tenons

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

I have, for years, used a sled and planing bit in my router table. Cut one cheek, flip, cut the other, mic the thickness, raise the bit, if needed, and trim again. Same for the shoulders. You do need a sacrificial piece of scrap as a backer to prevent tearout at the corners. Plan for the sled is in Bill Hylton's Router Magic book.

Re: Why?

Hank Knight

Bill, why are you worried about this? All of your work I've seen is perfect.

Picture?

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Sounds attractive. Can you capture the essence of this device in a picture for me? see the engineering comment.....

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Brian Holcombe

Bill, Making chairs I take this process differently than I might for other projects.

For batch work;

The parts must be sized with extreme precision, literally identical. This is easy to do if the tools are accurate and hell if they’re not set with high precision.

I do center the tenons, this allows a part that can’t be installed backwards because it is the same on all sides.

I process double tenons: Saw first with a bandsaw, then chop the sides. After which I cut the tenon sides and shoulders with a router table. I utilize a miter gauge, set accurately, with a stop.

I then cut the centers out with an upcut spiral.

I cut a full shoulder. This allows room for the tenon to move seasonally without showing visible gaps at the ends. This also tells you if your setup is accurate.

Mortises are so far cut with a hollow chisel machine. It’s a fairly accurate way to do it, if everything is sharp and the machine is sturdy. It’s not an approach that I’m married to, neither is router based tenon making. I’d rather be using a shaper with sliding table.

Re: How do you make mortice and tenon joints?

Jim in Burlington

I use the same jig Virgil, take care, Jim