Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

The discussion below about cutting a circular table top caused many to advocate using a plunge router to do the deed. Surprisingly, some don't have that tool in their shop.

Roger, I find the tone of your post really interesting. That is, that plunge routers are the exception to the rule in the USA.

Here in Oz it is impossible to purchase a fixed-base router. Plunge routers are the norm. I actually have difficulty understanding how fixed-base routers could become so popular and why plunge routers have not replaced them. My question to you (and the forum) is "where is a fixed-base router preferred?".

My trio ...

Another one in the router table ... !

And a couple of these for decoration. One day I'll rewire them and find out what the fuss is about ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

This discussion is getting interesting

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

""where is a fixed-base router preferred?". " The thing I value most in a router (for how I use it) is its "feel". The combination of handles and weight distribution affects my perception of control. A lot of my routing is by "feel" and I loose feel if the router is not compact with a low center of gravity. It is not uncommon that I am routing free hand to a scribe line and I want to be able to just kiss it. But even edge profiles benefit from feeling how the machine is cutting. My preferred machine is the DeWalt, though the old Porter Cable "felt good" but had awkward depth adjustment.

Requirement summary- low center of gravity, ergonomic handles, precision adjust of depth, excellent visibility of the bit. Other than this table edge need I have never needed the plunge feature in a router. Maybe if I had one I would find uses?

The two plunge routers I got rid of lacked the "feel" I find valuable.

Re: This discussion is getting interesting

Barry Irby

I have found hundreds of uses for the plunge base router. It does require a mind set. Part of it is the idea of presenting the tool to the wood or the wood to the tool.

I never considered the "feel", at least not consciously. The closest thing I do to requiring the feel the rounding over edges or beveling them.

In one of my posts about your table top I mentioned pulling gently on the router outward. If there is a little slop in the pivot, you make one pass pulling outward and then a cleanup pass pressing inward to clean off the last 1/32".

Is listening to the router part of the feel?

When taking heavy cuts it's important to have the router firmly in place and watch and feel for vibration and chatter. Cut direction would be akin to a spoke shave. I have marvelled many times at how versatile routers are, considering they are just a motor spinning a bit and are not even reversible. Perhaps that simplicity is what makes them versatile. I mean, who would have thought you could make cove moldings on a table saw?

Come to think of it, you can cut circles on a table saw also. There is another option for you.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

roger lance

Derek and Bill.....good morning to you both.

That is very interesting that in Oz, plunge routers are the norm. Now, I'm coming to this as a guy who bought his routers 25 years ago after attending the Norm Abram school of woodworking. I bought what was at that time some really well made Porter-Cable 690s.....and made use of their interchangeability of motors and bases.....even, my small router table has a modified PC router base attached to it and I just put a motor in when I use that table.

My preferred base is the D-handle base......by far. It gives me excellent control of the router.....two hands.....great balance.....and control of the on-off at my finger without taking my hand off the router.

The PC products.....including the plunge base.....have proven to be adequate for my routing needs and I have not looked to upgrade my collection which includes 2 D-handle routers, 1 standard base router, and the plunge base.

Over here, I think your observation is correct.....we've been marketed the standard base routers.....with the plunge based tools being a secondary choice.

Certainly, router products have moved on from my time.....and, I have to admit I've not kept up with what is the latest and greatest.

If, you get the chance Derek, try a D-handle.....I think you'll like it.

Re: This discussion is getting interesting

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

The combination of handles and weight distribution affects my perception of control. A lot of my routing is by "feel" and I loose feel if the router is not compact with a low center of gravity.

Bill, you know I agree about feel and feedback since I have written so much about this with hand planes. Especially about a low centre of gravity.

As I visualise it, a fixed-base router is best used for edges as you can start the machine with the bit off the edge, and then bring it inwards. You do this with a plunge router as well. I agree that some plunge routers are top-heavy and feel clumsy and cumbersome. There are others, however, that are very well balanced when in plunge mode .... which, of course, drops the centre of gravity. The centre router in the group of three (in my first picture) is the Elu OF97E. It has a wonderful balance and really excellent dust control. It is my favourite of the three.

As an aside, you are probably aware that Elu was the forerunner of the DeWalt range (Elu was purchased by Black and Decker in 1984). The large Elu 177e (in the photo) is the forerunner of the DeWalt 625.

What I struggle to visualise is how a fixed-base router can be used inside a board, such as along a straight edge routing a dado or mortice? Morticing with a plunge router is just so easy. What type of gyrations does one do with a fixed-based machine?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: This discussion is getting interesting

Dick Coers

There are plunge routers with good and bad ergonomics. Good ones have soft molded rubber oval handles that are mounted as low on the motor as possible. Poor ones have hard round plastic mounted higher. Good ones have the switch and lock lever mounted near a handle so you keep both hands on the handles at all time. Very easy to see the difference and the good ones have the same kind of feel as a fixed base. As mentioned, Elu was one of the pioneers to excellent design.

I find some harder to use

John K Jordan

I have several plunge routers here. How much I've used them depends on how easy the are to use. For example, one Porter Cable is difficult to use (I can't get it smooth and the spring compression effort is too much). I eventually removed the plunge base and use it only with the std base or in a table.

I use the Festool more - better design and easier to use (for me).

JKJ

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Bruce Schoenleber

"where is a fixed-base router preferred?"

I like a plunge base when a "plunge" is called for, such as dados and mortises. I prefer a fixed base for edge applications, coves, ogees, bullnose and trimming to a pattern.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Keith Newton

Hey Roger, Glad to see your templates. I'm curious about the line boring template. I've been doing that since the early eighties, although mine are actually 12" wide with the holes located 1.5" back from the front edge, so when I lay it on top of the side to be drilled, I clamp them flush with front and bottom, so the mounting plate is the right distance for hinge mounting plates. I can't tell from your pics if the holes have a bevel to help funnel the guide bushing in, but mine do. I've had a Ryobi plunge set up just for drilling for about 35 years. I can drill 1.5 holes per second with this, or 90 per minute.

I was wondering if the smaller holes are for indexing?

I also have a separate base cabinet side template with the holes for a wide array of options like 3 or 4 drawer stacks, or door with drawer over. This eliminates the need for leaning down and reaching back in to screw on the hardware. I can screw the slides on before building the box.

For many years I've been using a template kit for routing ellipses that is very versatile. Its actually just a stack of 3/4" plywood scraps that I cut a 1/2 T slots down, then some with a T slot across the short way. I then clamped those together face to face with a 1/2 template in the slots to guide another router with a dovetail bit so they can all be clamped together with little butterfly keys. I can quickly snap them together when slip a UHMW slider in each of the slots that are screwed to the trammel arm. I've routed hundreds of perfect ellipses over the years, without having to chase little lumps or dips in the line that are not just perfect.

Another of the most frequently used is the mortising jig, based on the Tage Freed, but with modifications to clamp in a bench vice.

Most of mine are Makita, and I'm partial to the square base.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

roger lance

Keith.....I first saw this jig on The New Yankee Workshop.....it was made by MEG products.....I just made a reasonable facsimile in 1/2" ply.

The holes are slightly chamfered on both sides as I flip the jig over when doing the holes on the rear of a cabinet side to eliminate any variation in my hole spacing that might have occurred when I made the jig.

The small holes are for indexing the jig if you wanted to extend the line of pin holes.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

jesse cloud

I can remember only very few projects over the last couple of decades where I haven't used a router. It's the way I roll.

I use both fixed and plunge based. Many of my routers have optional plunge bases, which I find ideal.

You can do stopped grooves with a fixed base, by leaning them into the workpiece, but that's awkward and error prone. Definitely an application for plunging.

You can build simpler jigs for plunge routers, not needed to allow for 'approach room' needed for fixed.

My main nit with plunge based routers is that the depth control devices don't seem to me to be as reliable as the fixed devices. After dozens of repeated plunges, the depth often drifts, leading to the need to check and recheck depth every so often. The depth also seems sensitive to the amount of pressure used to hold the machine down. These may just be my own personal shortcomings in technique.

Fixed routers tend to be lighter and more compact. Better for jig work where you have to lift the darn thing often. I love my monster Festool OF2200, a wonderfully balanced 3 HP plunger, but at the end of the day my arms get pretty darned tired from lifting the beast, so my PC690 gets much of the jig work.

If you have one that works model numbers...

Gary Smyth

To hell with the virtues of what can be achieved with a plunge router. Most of us know what is possible.. I would rather know what router does the job. If you have one that works tell us which specifically you prefer. Some are powerful, some are comfortable in the hand, some are plunge in name only. Put your opinion out for us to look at, review and consider. I have Porter Cable 690's with plunge base, Craftsman 315.278110, Bosch 1613 EVs, Freud FT2000E and the DeWalt 625. Of those the most confidence I have is with the DeWalt and the Bosch. The Bosch for control and the DeWalt for deep, heavy cuts. All are heavy and require care but the soft start of the DeWalt gives me time to get ready. I've never had it bog down, and the weight distribution is manageable.

If you have other choices list them and why.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Sgian Dubh

"Roger, I find the tone of your post really interesting. That is, that plunge routers are the exception to the rule in the USA."

Derek, when I moved to the USA to work in 1993 I was quite taken aback to discover that most routers in that country were fixed base. Plunge routers were just starting to make real inroads into the market if I recall it right (no guarantee on that though). DeWalt were getting in on the act, and because they were basically Elu's (much like the ones in your photographs) with a wasp coat on, I bought a few I was very familiar with the way Elu routers worked. Other brands common in the US were trying to get their heads around the plunge router concept, some better than others. I never did take a shine to Porter Cable's efforts in that market.

Prior to that, the last fixed base router I'd seen in action was an old Black & Decker job that must have come out of the ark, i.e., circa mid-1950s, and that was here in the UK. I don't think I've seen a fixed base router here since that one some time around 1975'ish.

Plunge routers took off fast here in the UK when they showed up sometime in the late 60s and were the death knell for 'antiquated' (sic) fixed base jobbies in a matter of a few years. It's a mystery why here in the UK we adopted plunge routers with alacrity, and yet the Americans somehow still, even now, slightly resist their charms. Who knows why such marked cultural differences and preferences persist, but they do, ha, ha.

The whole of this post was written tongue in cheek, metaphorically speaking. Slainte.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Mark Hennebury

I have a mix of both.

Mark nailed it!

jesse cloud

Mark, From the picture, I think you have achieved woodworker's nirvana - a different router for each bit!!

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Mark, what do you use the fixed-base routers for .. other than edge work?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Ray Newman

And I thought I was the only one who liked the ol' tried and true PC 690 with a D-handle base.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

roger lance

We might be a couple of dinosaurs!

I have half of the jig....

Hoa Dinh in Alameda

I have a similar shelf pin jig. The only difference is that it's only "half" of your jig.

Imagine ripping the jig in half, length-wise. The "holes" now become half circle "indentations." This makes jig no less accurate, but very fast in action. It's much easier to slide the router to the next indentations than to lift the router and drop the template guide in the next hole.

Here's my favorite router kit:

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Hank Knight

Derek,

From my personal historic perspective, routers became popular in the late 1950s with the Stanley chrome-dome fixed base model. Rockwell, Bosch and others followed. All were fixed base. We used them for edge profiling, template routing and other such stuff for which fixed base routers were suited. As I recall, plunge routers didn't start showing up here in numbers until the 1980s. They were a revelation. You could do things with a plunge router that were difficult or impossible with a fixed base router. They have been big sellers ever since. I don't have any data to support my view, but my guess is that plunge routers outsell fixed base routers by 2 to 1 now. I still have a couple of fixed base routers that I use occasionally, but I almost always use my plunge routers, even for tasks for which a fixed base machine would be perfectly adequate. I don't think fixed base routers are the norm here anymore. Those that remain are leftovers from an a earlier time, or were purchased for use in a router table with a lift.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Mark Hennebury

hi Derek, ummm... what don't i use routers for fixed or plunge?

I use fixed routers for template routing, in many different materials, wood plastic, fibre glass, aluminum Steel, cast iron, i use them for cutting and grinding.

Routers revolutionized woodworking and plunge routers revolutionized routers. The possibilities are endless, i use routers for many things. Lots of woodworking stuff of course, template routing, jointing against fences etc..

Woodworking template routing

Metal lathe ID & OD grinding

Grinding cast iron linear ways on ta tablesaw sliding top. using the linear guide and table from a tenoner as the guidance system

Cutting a 1/4" plate steel machine base to fit a new electric box. I used the plunge router on this, but could have used the fixed base.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

Ray Newman

Yup and some of my tools also are dinosaurs!

Have a Sears variable speed scroll saw that I bought back in 1970. Also have the ol' PC100 1/4" collet router 7/8 HP and metal case. Probably 30+ years old.

Re: Plunge Routers.....uses of.....

David Yoho

Count me in too. I started with the PC 691 (D handle) and later acquired the 693 plunge base. Later I added a couple of other 690s and another 691. I have always liked the D handle for its feel and control for edge routing. The last PC router I bought was probably the 890 with the variable speed and slightly higher HP to use in my router table.

Now I am even more router flummoxed

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Not only have I never before encountered a need for a plunge router but the D handled routers left me puzzled as to how they would be used for anything. When I use a router it is grasped with two hands straight out in front of me. This position gives me precise control, left-right and front-back because the handles are symmetrical and the router centered to my control. It would seem that the D handle would be suitable for pushing or dragging a router and neither of these motions seems ideal, or even useful. What am I missing?

In addition to the usual edge routing which I do on a table if I can, I use a fixed base router for template routing and most often for wasting out hinge mortises, half blind dovetail waste, and other waste, where I am free-handing wood removal to a scribe line at a critical depth. None of these operations benefit from a plunge base.