OT - Giving Notice Redux

Re: OT - Giving Notice Redux

Larry in NW Ohio

>Top Quality, Larry in Ohio

May I re-write this for you?

Mark Goodall - ATL - tooljunkie

>This is to inform you that I am submitting my resignation of employment, effective March 26th, 2007, two weeks from today.

I appreciate the experience (COMPANY NAME) has provided me and have enjoyed being part of a great team.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXX

Remember this letter will become part of you "record" that may follow you everywhere for the rest of your career. There is no good reason to say the other things you said. Someone in 5 years who is thinking of hiring you may see this and wonder what happened. Sounds too much like you're defending you decision to leave.

Just say goodbye and thanks and that's it. Anything more is unecessary and counterproductive.

Just my opinion, of course.

Happy Woodworking!

Re: Too late..

JL

>already submitted. I wanted to say bad things. This was toned down considerably.

Re: May I re-write this for you?

Paul Woolson

>Mark, I'm in no way an expert in this field but I had a friend who was in HR. According to her, that "personnel record" is a myth because it's illegal for it to "follow" you. It is only used at the specific place of employment. Yes, if the person tries to come back and work there again, it would be available, but that information cannot leave the office. In fact, she said that if a prospective employer called to get information, the only thing she could legally tell them was the start date and finish date of their employment.

Re: May I re-write this for you?

Bill Howatt

>While this is a trend these days, I don't think it is that simple. A previous employer can get into trouble by not revealing a serious problem that resulted in dismissal particularly if legal action is involved.

People in HR departments tend to be a lot more disciplined in these matters but if your previous supervisor gets contacted there is a good chance he'll tell lots - after all, those dumb rules HR sent down are just more paper-pushing garbage. A good interviewer can very quickly pick up a gut feel about how the previous supervisor really rates the applicant even if he doesn't come right out and say he was mediocre, poor or outstanding.

I don't know if that's actually codified, or...

Rod Peterson -- Ormond Beach

>…just a common practice as company policy.

I had a friend in Illinois who was the president of a large manufacturing company and we talked about this kind of thing a lot. He told me that he never called for references in the first place because he couldn't have any confidence in what might be told to him (such as the former employer covering for a lousy employee to avoid a lawsuit, or a bad reference as retribution for a perceived ill act, or…well the possibilities are endless). He also said he never gave a reference to cover his behind in case the former employee did some evil to the new employer who then might be inclined to try and recover losses with a suit against the “glowing” reference.

As president of the company, that was his directive to HR, so in the context of that company, it would have been illegal, as you say, for HR to give anything more than they were permitted to by him.

I've been given to understand that the whole dynamic of references has changed in the workplace over the years, largely due to the litigious nature of many of the parties.

Rod

I said "may"

Mark Goodall - ATL - tooljunkie

>I worked for many years in HR... actually not in HR, but automating/computerizing HR departments. And yes, these days alot of this is not supposed to follow you around, but I've seen too many instances where "should not" was actually "shouldn't have", and so yes, sometimes these things "may" follow you. And I've seen more than once where the way someone left affect them later. There is alot of things that shouldn't happen, that does.

Happy Woodworking!

Sorry....

Mark Goodall - ATL - tooljunkie

>I don't know why I misread this.... I thought you said you were going to submit it. I didn't realize you already submitted it. I would not have responded the way I did if I knew you had already submitted it.

Happy Woodworking!

Re: May I re-write this for you?

Don Evans

>There is one very important question someone can ask on the phone that the HR can answer and it says everything. So it really doesn't matter what the letter said.

That question is: "Given the chance would you rehire this person?"

Anything in the record must stay private and that is true or JL could sue the pants off them. Given the ability to prove anything that is.

Don

I agree

Joe Piotrowski - Chicago Burb's

>what is legal and what is reality are two different things. saying it's illegal and then bury your head in the sand is not even close to reality.

this is the case more so without official HR depts. where it is usually someone job thought attrition. these people usually have zero training to be in HR. it's not even there full time job. they don't know the laws all the time.

better safe than sorry!

Nah...

Jason Roehl in Mulberry, IN

>...it generated an interesting discussion.

It's amazing that we can't really even have references now because of the threat of lawsuit. Sad.

Jason

Re: OT - Giving Notice Redux

Ernie Miller

>I wish you the best in your future! I hope all goes well and you have plenty of time for sawdust. let us know where you end up.

Vibrant Memories..

George@Colonel's Workshop-Havertown PA

>Good Morning Rod,

During my post-Air Force Career, I worked for DOD and had numerous employees including a secretary-typist who tried my patience mightily. Patty was always late and always had an "attitude". She made lots of mistakes in her work, which affected the administration of my branch. Employee counciling got me nothing but smirks. Further, Patty abused sick leave but always presented a Doctor's appointment slip. She was also placed on Leave Without Pay frequently. One day I was inclosing her latest two "sick slips" in her folder and I noticed they were identical except for the date and time of the appointment. I examined all the ones in her file and saw they all had been photocopied from a single original with the appointment time/dates left blank. I had initiated personnel action to remove her from her job when she abruptly resigned to work elsewhere at a much better and higher paying position in the private sector. I wished her well and thanked God for the favor of a speedy removal. Months later I received a letter of inquiry from the local Internal Revenue Office who was reviewing Patty's work application. It did my heart good to send them the supervisory files, including the fake sick slips, time and attendance history, and records of counciling. I don't think she got the IRS job. What goes around, comes around.

George

Re: Vibrant Memories..

Neal in San Jose

>Reminds me of the time I got a phone call from the HR dept. of a local company. When they said that I had been used as a reference for Mr. X, I was stunned. I had terminated him for cause (stealing). I told the HR person I wasn't comfortable giving a reference, and the HR person was savvy enough to pick up from the tone of my voice to figure out what was going on. She then asked one question "Is Mr. X eligible for re-hire"? When I answered "No", she said she thought that would be the case.

I guess the lesson here is to always ask for permission to use someone as a reference, and ask them what they will say. A little coaching may be in order, too. "Remind" former bosses or co-workers of accomplishments, awards, etc.

Re: Vibrant Memories..

Bill Howatt

>As a rule, previous supervisors will fall all over themselves to help a good (in their mind) employee who has left for a better job or laid-off through no fault of their own.

Bill

Re: Vibrant Memories..

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>It is the policy of our company that any calls by employers inquiring about former employees, to direct them to our HR department, who dutifully comfirms that they were employed here, and not much else. However, when I am listed as a "Personal" reference, I always feel that I can give them at least some Personal opinion.

Last time I got one of those calls after a departmental down sizing, I told them that the person in question was the person who had hired me 8 years previously, and at the time of his discharge, he was assigned to my department, "Working" for me, and when not outside smoking, he was mostly playing Solitaire on his computer because he did not have enough technical skill to have jobs assigned to him. I told them to decide what I thought.

It was all the truth, and he was assigned to me, mostly because I knew the layoffs were coming and he had to have a place to set during the day.

Mark

Re: Vibrant Memories..

Lee Gordon

>A number of years ago, the sister of the woman I was dating used me as a reference and neglected to inform me. I had never actually worked with her but I had seen some of her work and was aware of what she was capable of. When I got the surprise call from her prospective employer, I gave her the best recommendation I could honestly provide but when I was asked what my connection to her was, I answered that honestly, too. Answering "She's my girlfriend's sister" probably didn't help her much (and thus didn't help myrelationship much, either). If I had been warned, I could at least have been prepared to better dance around the question.

A few years later, the receptionist where I was working (one of the most annoying people I have ever dealt with on a daily basis) applied for a job with one of my clients. She must have known that I couldn't stand her so I'm sure she did not give my name as a reference, but my client knew we worked in the same office so he called me to inqire about her. I told him that I would love to give her a glowing recommendation just so she would move on to a new employer as soon as humanly possible, but that I couldn't foist her on his company.

A few years after that, my boss informed me that the company had a new policy regarding recommendations. If anybody asked, the only information I was allowed to give out was confirmation that the person in question had worked for the company. They were afraid of being sued either by the employee -- if a negative recommendation resulted in his being denied a job -- or the prospective employer -- if a positive recommendation led to the hiring someone who turned out to be less than satisfactory.

Re: May I re-write this for you?

Hank Knight from SC

>I defend employers in these lawsuits. Unfortunately, employers get sued all the time for giving "false" (in the eyes of the former employee) references. I have never seen a case where the employee agreed with a bad reference, even when the employees work history was miserable. It's a lot easier for an employee to say "They lied about me" than to say "I was a poor employee."

Employers also get sued for not giving a reference - the employee claims that by not giving a reference the prospective employer could only assume that the reference would have been bad. So it's a catch 22, employers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Over the last 20 years it evolved that employers would give only dates of employment, job title and wage rates in reponse to all reference inquiries, whether the employee was a good employee or a terrible one. These "references" are useless, for all practical purposes.

A couple of years ago the South Carolina legislature passed a law that is supposed to protect employers who give "truthful" information about an employee's work performance in reponse to a reference request. I'm defending a case now where the employee has sued claiming that the reference information about her job performance was not "truthful" and therefore not protected by the law. Fortunately, the employer had documented the empoyees shortcomings, so I think we can prove that the reference was "truthful." The point is, however, that the employer is still having to spend a lot of money to defend a lawsuit, even after the legislature acted to carve out a safe haven for "truthful" reference information.

Sometimes you can't win - even if you win.

Re: May I re-write this for you?

Larry in NW Ohio

>Hank I know this is going to sound really dumb, but why can`t the company sue her when you win the case. These kinds of lawsuits just piss me off, when people are so arrogant. If nothing else take her to small claims court, if nothing else to say I`m not going to take it anymore, to bad you couldn`t take her lawyer to court for malpractice or something. As you can tell I now nothing about the law. It`s to bad since I`m being taken to court. Larry in Ohio

Many employers ...

Ron in Drums PA

>Many employers are now using the internet to "look up references" on perspective employees.

It's amazing what even a simple google search can reveal about someone.

For a few dollars there are sites that can dig a little deeper into a person's background.

Can you help me sue them back

Mark Goodall - ATL - tooljunkie

>This whole sueing (sp?) society we live in makes me sick.

I've been an employee working under many people, and a manager resposible for many people. I've been in the situation of being asked for references many times.

I tell you what. If I'm asked for a reference, and I give a truthful yet bad review, and they want to sue me... go ahead, sue me... you're an idiot.

If I'm asked for a reference, and I give a truthful good review, and that person choses to screw up later.... give me a break, I can't predict the future, I can only present the past honestly. If those Investment banking firm can say "Past performance is no guarentee of future performance" then why can't I say that truthfully?

And iF I'm asked for a reference, and due to fear of a lawsuit and not permitted to speak honestly.... then dammit, I wanna sue somebody for not allowing me to speak honestly. There's a sin of commsission just as well as omission. Not saying the truth is just as bad as saying an untruth. If I'm being forced to do someting that I'm unconfortable with, or even lie, heck... I'm going to sue you for the guilt it caused me.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but this suing cr*p really bugs me.

Happy Woodworking!

It is amazing

DB

>It is amazing how many people (almost all) can not see there own shortcomings. Maybe they just do not want to admit they have any.

Re: Many employers ...

Jim Dillon

>Ron,

Very interesting and thought-provoking topic. Speaking of the internet, there was a recent article in the Washington Post regarding the harm that untruthful accusations posted on these personal web sites can have on a person seeking employment. Apparently, as you said, employers are using the internet to search out anything said by and about a prospective employee. And then using that UNSUBSTANTIATED info to make a decision regarding hiring the person. Not good in my opinion.

Jim

I'm so glad I'm retired.. no more BS

Stuart Johnson

>I no longer need to worry about giving or getting references, annual reviews, hiring or firing. I had one employee that had over two years worth of documented work and attendance problems. HR would not consider allowing me to fire her because she was over 50. I finally got fed up with the lady causing problems with other personnel and told HR I was going to give her a raise and assign her to sit in the employment office waiting room rather than come into the department. At that point they decided she needed to go on medical leave.

By the way have you noticed how the general theme is, our employees are lazy bums and our bosses are overpaid idiots.