Sharpening station finished....a little wonky

Re: Sharpening station finished....a little wonky

Guillaume Dery

Overkill, overbuilt...just the ticket!

That turned out real nice roger. I really like the look of it and I think it could survive being run over by a tank.

I think you will be really glad you went the multiple drawers route in the long run.

Of course, we all want a progress report after it has been in commission for a while (what works, what doesn't, what you'd change if you knew then what you know now...).

Good job

Guillaume

(who is finally done framing and is running his electrical this weekend. (2 months until I have a working shop again!))

Question

Bill Tindall

If I read correctly one of these stones is not silicon carbide? I have been curious what the composition of the various synthetic stones were, supposing all were some variety of aluminum oxide with the more modern ones one of the newer forms of aluminum oxide (seeded gel/ceramic, etc).

If you know the mineral composition of these various stones I would find it of interest to reveal this information, ideally in a new post.

Why? Well, the composition will tell one a lot about what the stone can do. Silicon carbide will cut the hardest alloying carbides in the more abrasion resistant steels where as aluminum oxide is much less effective. However, unless some materials advance has been made silicon carbide is brittle and it easily crushes to finer particles when used in coarser grits. A ceramic or seeded gel aluminum oxide particle will maintain fresh cutting edges without having to shed particles to do so. Hence, a harder stone can be made that will be more resistant to wearing unflat. Etc. .......

The sharpening stone market must be tiny and I would presume it will not support materials research.?. Any insight on where developments in materials for sharpening is coming from (some larger market)? Are there any stones employing one of the boron abrasives?

Re: Sharpening station finished....a little wonky

roger lance

It is a little over-the-top....no doubt....but its only a little hard maple. a couple of 2x4's, some 1/2" bb ply, and wipe on poly gel....whats a cabinet maker to do??....I will give a use report down the road....Hope you are documenting your shop build....next to watching a bench build, woodworkers of all types like to look at a shop come into being.

Re: Shaptons and Sigmas

roger lance

Stu....I did not intend to convey that LV's relationship to Sigma Power Select II's was proprietary....only that I was considering their three stones which they occasionally ship free.

Re: Sharpening station finished....a little wonky

Guillaume Dery

Well, the purists here may poo-poo my shop build. 6 240V circuits plus 4 20A 120V circuits for general use... this is the handtools forum after all

All kidding aside, I have a few pics and part of a write-up going since the shop is part of a full basement rehab and I was getting tired of questions as to why and how I dealt with moisture. I promise I will post a multi-part write-up on it (either that or do it a la Derek and split it out and start posting now).

Will try to get something out tonight or tomorrow. I can use it as an excuse to pick the collective mind as to shop layout (I keep changing my mind so different perspectives may help).

Re: Question

Schtoo

Bill,

The two newest Select II stones are not Sintered SiC, they're AlOx.

I've asked pointedly what they did with these two stones, but they won't tell me. Trade secret and all that...

I can tell you that the sintered stones are made with a binder, compressed and fired until the binder is burned out of them. The binder only serves to hold the stone together until it's fired.

What I can also tell you is that the two newest stones, the #400 and #1200 are the most dish resistant stones I've ever seen, and yet they work quickly on anything I can get my hands on.

And as of today, that includes a proprietary Hitachi PM-HSS that's stupefyingly hard/tough. Hard enough that half the stones I tried it on today wouldn't touch it, they only polished it. The #400 bites into the stuff nicely, as does the #1200.

What I was told about the #400 is that it's just AlOx, but what I suspect is that it's a different form of it, because I've got an AlOx #400 that doesn't perform half as well. The other is a resin binder and no soak, the Sigma is a vitrified binder and no soak, but the no soak part is a non intended side effect because of how much binder they needed to add to boost it's dish resistance, which is very impressive and the stone still cuts fairly quickly. It's not the fastest, but it works hard and doesn't load excessively. The closest in performance to it is the Shapton GS #500, which is slightly coarser in particle size but dishes much more in actual use.

The #1200 has a different binder, and as far as the abrasive goes, I was simply told "there's more of it". What I suspect is that again, it's a different form of AlOx and the binder used is again vitrified but is a harder, more durable type to again, boost the dish resistance. I was worried as the stone is rated for HSS, but the normal Sigma 'hard' (which the #1200 is basically a derivative of) isn't as effective on HSS as it is on normal steels. However, the #1200 is very effective on HSS. You can tell it's slowed down, but it's still faster than any other AlOx stone I've got. The slurry produced by this stone is not swarf/stone, it's just swarf i.e; metal.

Whatever the abrasive is, it's still got to put up with the kiln firing all Sigma stones go through to fuse the binder.

I could send some stones off to be analyzed, and find out exactly what they're made of, but at the same time doing such a thing would put a strain on my relationship with Sigma Power, which is quite good. It's enough for me to tell them what I want, they produce something to match the request or close to it, I try it and pass back my thoughts and whether to go for it or not.

I still have a prototype GC #400 that is a very good stone in it's own right, but it wasn't what I was after so I nixed it. It's a nice stone and works really well, but it's an evolutionary dead end for the time being. I think it needs a binder in it to harden it up, because it's a sintered stone which at that grit level means it's excessively friable. The same problem that plagues the Select II #1000, but doesn't affect the #700 which does have a binder and is generally regarded as a muddy, but still very fast and nice to use stone.

I cannot say for sure how big the stone market actually is. I am quite sure it piggy-backs on the research and development conducted for other means since 'stones' pop up everywhere, even places where you'd not expect them and in all kinds of odd shapes and applications.

There are, to the best of my knowledge, no boron abrasive stones that are of any use to folks like us. I have seen them, but they were very small and used to clean up molding and forging dies. I've also seen zirconium abrasives somewhere, and there are of course the diamond 'stones' which have a diamond rich compound suspended in resin (King and Naniwa) or vitrified ceramic (iWood/Sigma Power).

I don't know all the specifics of how the stone makers get by, other than Bester/Imanishi are a natural stone dealer and general abrasives dealer. Naniwa make all manner of sharpening gear and general purpose grinding gear. King are similar, holding licensing agreements with a few international companies and also doing their own thing. Sigma Power were originally a natural stone dealer that has branched out into carbide tipped and diamond plated tooling, and their stone dealing lead them into getting their own stones made. Shapton, as far as I'm aware, only do stones for sharpening knives and tools.

It's a common thing for a maker/dealer of something to branch out into another area, which is how the known stone makers started doing what they do.

Of them all, I think Sigma Power is the smallest and farms out pretty much everything. You might think that means I can just find out who makes the stones and get them directly, but trying that would be suicide. It's just not the done thing, and to be honest, it's not something I want to try.

However, getting my own stones made to a specification I decide is not impossible. For that I do need to know who makes them, and so long as I don't try and replicate something the actual maker already makes, I'll be fine.

Which also explains the odd stones that pop up. It's most likely come from a ceramics maker of some kind who's thrown together some bits and pieces and popped out a stone for someone.

It's not rocket science. Not quite.

(Actually, it almost is. I'm sure one or more of the stone 'makers' also does some ceramics work for the space program here in Japan...)

It's quite an interesting time at the moment. For a very long time, the stones available were quite stagnant and nothing was new for years at a time. In the past 3 years there have been dozens of new stones coming onto the market, very few of which are worth a second thought to be honest, but they're new and occasionally there's a gem in there. It's actually quite easy to make a stone, but something else to make one that's consistent between batches and works in a way that's desirable. Especially so with the metals that are becoming available now to the wider market.

If I ever manage to find out more, and I'm allowed to tell, I will. For the moment, I have to say "I don't know" even though I might suspect a lot of things.

Stu.

Re: The 5K, btw..

roger lance

David....I have been following your posts here and on SMC where you advocate two stone sharpening....I'm a strong believer in the K.I.S.S. approach....so for me with O1 & A2 plane blades and Pfeil (Swiss Made) chisels, Shapton Pro 1000 &15000 would be all I'd need??

Re: The 5K, btw..

david weaver

I hesitate to say much about what brand of stones. I like shaptons because they're hard, and you don't need to do anything but spritz them.

Stu's stones are good, too, as are many others. The 13000 stone stu has is a bit finer than the shapton 15k, and only short of the shapton 30k (which itself is a stone that I'd consider as a way to make money go away without getting any practical benefit).

When clean (that applies for all stones, compare them with surface clean and not loaded, you can always remove the loading or the hard dried swarf softer stones have), the shapton 15k is a little faster than the 13k sigma (about proportional to the fineness), and is about as fine as I'd want to go on a two stone regimen, though if you really want a tinge more sharpness and still stick to two stones, the sigma stone could be made to work with extra swipes.

All of that said, any two decent stones would work fine, and I think it's probably wise to buy a pair of stones and use them, and if there's a trait about them you don't like at first, keep using them because you will adapt to them just fine. After you've got a good quick regimen, ignore all of the hype about new this or that, because you'll gain little other than a bench full of stones and a thinner wallet.

If you want to do really fine and really cheaply, you can always go to a hard surface and chromium oxide or fine diamonds. 100 carats of extremely fine diamonds is only 22 bucks, and you'd not go through them in a lifetime of woodworking. There's also no debate on what a diamond will or won't cut, and I'm convinced in 10 years, everything will be diamonds, anyway. they've come down gobs in price in the last 10.

Thanks for the detailed reply

A fitting altar to sharpening, ...

David Barnett

...foremost of the hand tool woodworking έλευσίνια μυστήρια.

Re: It would have a short life in my shop

James Watriss

You've justified the shop, and probably some Festool stuff to make those cabinets...

Re: The 5K, btw..

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Hi Roger

This post is more one of adding to Davids' comments rather than challenging anything he wrote. I bow to his wider experience with waterstones.

The 5000 - or something in that range - is a necessary medium once the "micro" bevel becomes a "macro" bevel. That is, as you are getting close to regrinding the hollow as the microbevel has begun to take too long to hone.

As a parallel, when we were testing out the diamond mesh grits, the goal was to find a spacing that reduced the next grit up to the minimum number of strokes to remove scratches. The balance was that we also needed to keep the number of grits to 3 or 4. (Of course, going down to .01 micron does add a little extra complication! ).

The other factor is the steel you are using - just how abrasive-resistant is it? O1 and A2 are not in the same league as HSS (M2) and the PM steels. I would be looking at reducing the "gap" under those circumstances as well.

Does the higher grit (e.g. 30K Shapton) offer any value? Is there a plateau where further sharpening no longer offers anything to woodworking?

I have not used a 30K Shapton. I have used 0.5 micron green compound (from LV), 0.5 micron 3M micro-abrasive sheets. and the 0.1 micron diamond film. I think that the latter is rated about 200K micron.

The simple answer is that the difference can be felt and seen. That it may not last as long as some would consider to be cost-effective is another issue altogether. There is a law of diminishing returns on everything, as we know. My opinion is, that if the work involved requires the extra control needed (not everything does), then the higher grits are just another tool to get the job done properly.

It is not necessary to go out and purchase a 30K stone. There are the alternatives such as green compound and, recently, the diamond mesh.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Truth is, there aren't that many "purists"

Bruce, a MN Galoot

on this side of the fence.

Post away! We'd love to see the blow-by-blow of your shop build.

Re: The 5K, btw..

David Weaver

Derek - I agree that the stuff finer than 1 micron can be felt.

A buddy (who bought the shapton 30k glasstone) and I took a few pieces of sample stock and planed them off of his 16k glasstone, my 15k pro stone and his 30k glasstone.

We then viewed the pieces in raking light and tried to figure out what we could see as a surface improvement and could see none.

But you're right about the HSS, it's a whole different league, and diamonds can make a bigger jump than anything. I have only gone from 10 micron to 0.5 micron, but I was able to make that jump just fine with loose diamonds.

I might be quicker to my grinder than most. Usually on something like a stanley 750, when the flats in total are the same area as the hollow or just a little bit more, I'll be back to the grinder. If I think i'm not getting what I want, with the final polish stone I'll lift the chisel just a degree or so for two strokes. That amount ensures a good edge, but doesn't make it hard for me to raise a wire edge the next time I sharpen without lifting off the reference flats.

It's all details, and none of them matter, I suppose, everyone has to find their own ways. Three years ago, I was hard into the powder metals, but I think I have new tool fatigue, and I probably will not ever venture into more exotic steels.

I did get some veritas 0.1 micron film to play with on razors. I'm jonesing to give that a shot, but haven't yet.

Anyway, I like the 5k for what it does on japanese irons. Most of those aren't nearly so tough even as A2, unless they are super super hard, so my reference could be off a little since I nearly never use the 5k on western tools.

I have used it some for flattening backs, though, and like the japanese tools, recall that it does a decent job of bringing up a polish, and its tendency to load (which it has) can be mitigated with technique.

I guess I haven't really found any stone in the 3-5k range that I think is the world. Fujibato's 6k house brand magnesia stone is maybe the closest, I guess wet stone to wet stone, it's similar in grit to the shapton 5k, and I'd include it in that range, but it feels like an expensive stone.

Re: The 5K, btw..

roger lance

David, Derek, et al....Currently, it has become difficult to find a Shapton Pro 1000 for sale in the American market (possibly due to the tsunami)....is the Shapton Pro 1500 a suitable substitute??....between the Shapton Pro 5000 or Shapton Pro 8000 which would be the better intermediary between the 1000 and 15000??

Re: The 5K, btw..

Schtoo

Nothing to do with the Tsunami, they're still readily available here, and the last set I sent out only took 2 days to show up from my supplier.

And there has been no break in supply of any kind from Shapton. Any supply problems are not because of anything that has happened here in Japan.

Just an FYI.

Stu.

Re: The 5K, btw..

roger lance

Stu....Thank you....what I've been seeing of the Shapton Pro 1000's that are available here is the packaging is in Japanese not English and you are asked to pay a premium for the stone....I know that you have warned about some Shaptons being intended for the Japanese market only and that is what I think I'm finding. BTW, you are still in the running....it would be difficult to beat your package deal on the Sigmas....but I already have a DMT dia-flat lapping plate. Also, my idea of the type of sharpening I want to do is realizing that the blade I'm using is dull....go to the sharpening station and touch it up....clean up....return to the bench and resume working in a couple of minutes....the Sigmas need to be soaked and that requires some forethought and planning which is fine if an extended sharpening session is the order of the day....but I want to just go to the station, touch up, and go back to work quickly and I think the Shaptons might fit that style better.

Re: The 5K, btw..

Schtoo

Regarding the 'different composition' thing, here's what I "know" with no speculation.

The difference is supposed to be for climatic reasons, but Japan is not too different to the US in that regard, sharing a similar range of latitudes from tropical to 'freezing!' and everything in between. Granted, Japan is generally a wetter climate so there's no argument there.

From most reports of folks who've used both, they can't tell the difference between the two versions. I've got a US market #1000, and in appearance and in all aspects of use, it's identical. Not similar, actually tested to be identical with documentation to back it up.

When I first started selling stuff, the Japanese market 'Kuromaku' as the pro is called here had a warning label that if the stone was exported, the warranty was voided. This label was in both English and Japanese. Then the Pro was taken off the US market, and those labels stopped appearing on the stones. Now the Pro have been re-introduced to the US market, but the label has not reappeared. The Glass Stones carry no such warning and never have.

The 'M series' Shapton still carry the warning label, but to the best of my knowledge, these have never been officially distributed outside of Japan.

Of the many Shapton stones I've sent out, I've never had a complaint about the quality but I was forced to buy a set of both Pro and Glass to sort out some difficulties several customers had. Otherwise, I would never have bought myself so many of them (currently at 17 of them). There are, of that number, 3 that I willingly and wantingly bought for myself. They were the M5 #220 (crap), the original Pro #1000 (good, but not perfect) and the GS #500 (good, but not great) and in that order.

(And I lusted after a set of Pro stones for years, but never managed to get myself a set until I was effectively forced into it. Would you believe I've actually bought 2 GS #16K stones? I must be mad...)

That's what I know to be accurate and true. Anyone else can speculate from that whatever they wish to.

I'll not comment on the DMT flattening device. I do know their customer service is very good though and they work very hard to solve any problems you have with their products, even the Dia-flat.

(Don't ask me how I know that...)

Stu.

Shapton pro 1k

David Weaver

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shpro10.html

Great store to go to, cheaper than a lot of woodworking suppliers, and they've always been prompt with me.

Shipping, I think, is free over $60, so you could throw a little trinket or something in to get there.

Re: Shapton pro 1k

roger lance

David....thanks much....unfortunately, they have been out of Shapton Pro 1000's for about two months.....what do you say about my question regarding working style and sharpening....I just want to go sharpen for a few minutes when a tool is apparently dull and then return to work and I believe that the Shaptons fit this approach better than stones needing a prolonged soak....what say you???

Answer for Roger. Question for Stu and David.

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Hi Roger

Shaptons are great for this. Until I built a sharpening station close to my bench, I relied on a strop to maintain the edges as I worked. This changed once all the stones were nearby and available at a moments notice. It made no sense to use a strop when the stones were a flatter, more reliable alternative.

The situation again changes when the steel used is no longer best honed on the shaptons (e.g. PM-type steels). It was much more of an effort to use the Shaptons then - as the edges had to be worked much longer ... and the edges were still not great - hence the purchase of the Sigma IIs. There do work best with soaking. They require 2 or 3 minutes.

The question I have for either/both Stu and David is whether is any damage to be cause may occur by leaving the stones in water for several hours at a time?

I could keep each stone soaking in its own dedicated, small Tupperware-type container. This would then make them as convenient as the Shaptons (which require a significant spritzing before use). I imagine this should be OK since there is no binder to break down.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Shapton pro 1k

Pam Niedermayer

Sharpening has never been convenient. One trick I saw Jay van Arsdale do was instead of soaking the stone he transferred water with the tool he was sharpening. Seemed to make the process trivial.

In addition, I'm talking about the Sigma Power Ceramics, NOT the Sigma II's. Stu says on his site: The finer grit stones do not require soaking, and the wooden bases preclude this, but some standing water on the surface of the stone for a few seconds is recommended. These fine grit stones are a little softer than the very hard medium and coarse stones, but share the same fast action and strong dish resistance.

Pam

Re: Shapton pro 1k

David Weaver

If you can soak a stone (like stus soak indefinitely just fine) and you don't have a cold workshop like I do, then soaking isn't a big deal.

If the stone is something that needs care and must be soaked each time because it can't remain in water, then that's a pain.

If you have a cold shop like me, a hard stone that doesn't need soaking is nice. Diamond stones are nice, too.

The speed of sharpening really shouldn't be dependent on the stones, because the stones aren't doing a whole lot unless you waste your time working more metal than you should. You raise a wire edge with the first stone and you polish the edge with the second until you have a uniform polish at the edge. Any brand of stone will do it just fine.

The people who really like shaptons (like me) tend to like harder stones, and I tend to like harder stones in natural stones, too. Hard natural stones are a lot like shaptons, you condition the surface when they get loaded, and otherwise pretty much just put a little water on the surface and use them.

FTR, the craftsman I think the most of uses a diamond hone and spyderco stones. I haven't even tried them, but I'm sure he knows what he's doing.

if the stones are the arrows, it's the indian that counts the most.

BTW..

David Weaver

... there are a couple of 1000s on ebay.

I don't know why they're in short supply here, maybe shapton is more concerned about the glasstones, and maybe it's a distribution issue here (the place I've gone for shaptons in japan - jp metalmaster - is also out of 1ks, but that's probably a coincidence).

I have no good thoughts about any of the glasstones, esp. the 1k, which is as far as I can tell, softer than the pro.

As far as soaking goes, whether or not you can permanently soak something varies by stone. I wonder what would happen to the stones that can't be permasoaked, but I don't know anyone who does, especially, have the stones to let their choseras sit in water waiting to see if they'll turn into a pile of mush.

Re: Shapton pro 1k

Pam Niedermayer

FTR, the craftsman I think the most of uses a diamond hone and spyderco stones. I haven't even tried them, but I'm sure he knows what he's doing.

George pretty much sticks with O1/W1 based tools, which allows him to use pretty much whatever he wants in sharpening.

Pam