WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

Tuesday extra

Posts

Tuesday extra

#1

Tuesday extra

I found this one pretty hard -- but it is solvable without too much brute force.

In the pattern shown, fill in each of the twelve boxes with a numeral so that the completed boxes have these properties:

The two four-digit numbers reading left to right and the two four-digit numbers reading top to bottom are perfect squares.

The two two-digit numbers reading top to bottom and the two-digit number reading left to right on the bottom of the pattern are perfect squares.

All of the perfect squares are different, and none start with a zero.

The top two-digit number is not a perfect square.

What is the top number?

(The letters in the illustration have no significance -- just there to make it easier to discuss solution ideas.)


img

Re: Tuesday extra

#2

kinda going nuts on this one. ;-)

Squares have to end with 1,4,5,6, or 9, therefore none of the digits in the two digit numbers can be 2,3,7, or 8.

This eliminates 25, 36, and 81 from the pool of 2 digit numbers, therefore the 2 digit numbers must be 16, 49, and 64.

My problem so far is that I get 6 different configurations of the 2 digit numbers in the three spots, and none of them seem to work to get the last two down 4 digit numbers. Taking into account that some of the places could be more than one number, I get 10 different grids, but none of them yield the two downward 4 digit squares. Either I have a logic issue, am missing something (probably ;-)), or am just blind.......

Will have to keep playing.

Re: Tuesday extra

#3

On the right track! (& hint)

Good start, identifying the three numbers (and six combinations) that can go in fj and kl.

Look at what each of those combinations says about the numeral in space i.

Re: Tuesday extra

#4

Re: On the right track! (& hint)

May be a day or so before I get much time to look again. Interesting problem. I have a feeling that I am going to do a face palm when I figure it out ;-)

Re: Tuesday extra

#5

Another hint

Okay, I'll keep the hints on a slow trickle then, unless you say "uncle".

And no, this is not something that will elicit a "face palm" when you see it. No "aha". just some insights and "guided brute force".

Tonight's hints:

Consider the possibilities for fj and kl if i is even and if i is odd. That will allow you to eliminate one of the possibilities for fj and kl.

ab^2 (where a and b are numerals) = (10*a + b) ^2 = 100a^2 + 20 ab + b^2

Re: Tuesday extra

#6

Re: Another hint

I will keep playing. If you do post the answer, make sure that you label it so I don't open it.

Re: Tuesday extra

#7

Tuesday extra-solution outline (safe to view)

I know that at least Dan is still working on this, so I'll offer the solution outline in steps, with each hint assuming that the previous has been understood and figured out, so don't look at subsequent hints if you still want to figure out the previous step.

Re: Tuesday extra

#8

Hint 1

f,j,k, and l are the last digits of perfect squares, which limit their possibilities.

Re: Tuesday extra

#9

Hint 2

fj and kl are different perfect squares, not starting with zero, and there are only three of those that can be made out of 0,1,4,5,6, and 9

Re: Tuesday extra

#10

Hint 3

Once you have 16, 49, and 64 as the only square that can be in fj and kl, Look at the even/odd status of the penultimate digits of the four digit squares that end in the second digit of each of the above. Obviously, that digit has to fit in space i. You could test them all, but looking at the odd-even status is a short=cut.

Re: Tuesday extra

#11

Hint 3A

(10a + b)^2 = 100 a + 20 ab + b^2

B is the only part of that equation that contributes to the even/odd status of the digit in the tens place.

Re: Tuesday extra

#12

Hint 4

Any square ending in a 4 or a 9 has an even digit in the tens place, while any square ending in a 6 has an odd digit in the tens place. So 49 and 64 are fj and kl (but we don't know yet which is which.

This is where a little grunt work comes in. Excel is your friend!

At this, we fill in 49 and 64 (either place; doesn't matter for the next bit of work), and prepare lists of all the squares ending in 4, 9, 6, and 4, then start eliminating candidates based on the possibilities of matching with other squares on the interior four digits.

Re: Tuesday extra

#13

Hint 5

The previous step should have eliminated most of the possible squares, leaving only the first two digits to test. Test the square(s) that are candidates for cg the way you have it laid out, and if that doesn't work, switch fj and kl.

Here's my spreadsheet following hint #4. For each digit in 64 and 49, there is a column of numbers to be squared, the four-digit squares, and for those in red, a notation about the reason they have been excluded. The exclusions were don in the number order of the explanations.


img

Re: Tuesday extra

#14

And the answer

71

The full arrangement is

71

2304

5929

64

Re: Tuesday extra

#15

You know

I actually had this except for one thing that was a fundamental error. In my original part of the analysis, I talked about the only possible numbers for the ENDS. I forgot that the two digit on the left side was the STARTING number. All the rest I had and would have gotten it if I had not made that dumb error. ;-)

I had the tables of squares, and all the rest. Funny how you can get a faulty pattern in your thoughts and be unable to see beyond it. Oh, Well, that is what makes stuff like this fun. ;-)

Re: Tuesday extra

#16

Re: You know

So you had the answer, reflected in the upper-left to lower-right diagonal? I'd say that gets partial, but pretty close to full, credit!

Re: Tuesday extra

#17

Re: You know

Still qualifies as a face palm ;-)

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.