Small drop-lip container, finally

Re: Small drop-lip container, finally

Interesting, Craig. I was unfamiliar with the term "drop lip" so it took me a while to figure out what it was and how you did it. If I understand this correctly, you started in spindle orientation (offset to get a one-sided curved 'cylinder'), then rotated to bowl orientation to cut your tenon, then chucked that up for hollowing. So, you end up with a bowl with a  curved top lip. I've always gotten that look by starting with a round log or limb, but this is a way to produce it from any blank. Would you have needed to do the offset turning, or could you have just started with a cylinder?

Very cool, thanks for posting.

Ellis

Re: Small drop-lip container, finally

Could have started with a cylinder as well (or log, as the case may be), but starting with rectangular stock makes it a bit easier to mark center lines along the length and thereby mark center length for where to turn the tenon. At least that was the way I looked at it.

Plus I want to work toward creating a box with this sort of lip. That implies a lid with such as well to mate correctly. Haven't got it all oriented in my head yet, but it will require some coordinated measurements and a flat face on the stock can help with that.

I do have some Masur Birch log segments that I was think might be great for this style, especially given its great figure. I think I would still true the curve on one side by mounting it between centers on the pith and rounding the greater side to a smooth curve. (At least with the logs I have, the pith does not run true to center so there is a point that is farthest from the pith when spindle oriented on the pith.)

Comments welcome as I'm still putting this together in my head and altering plans.

Re: Small drop-lip container, finally

The thought of making a lid that would fit perfectly is beyond my realm of experience, but it occurs to me that you wouldn't need a lip on it because the undulating curves would register it naturally. If it were me doing this, I'd plan on a bit of hand fitting. Since it would be different pieces of wood for the box and lid, you'd probably have some wood movement issues to work around, too.

What an exercise! 

Ellis

just thinking out loud here...

Could you turn the same shape as a lid and rotate it 90º to approach a fit that could be tuned with carving or sanding?  

Re: just thinking out loud here...

I thought I knew what you were going for, but I'm not really seeing it. Are you thinking of a solid lid or one that would have its underside hollowed? Are you thinking that with the lid on it would fit like a saddle in the drop, so the lid itself would droop inwards as well?

As always, I'm sure there are many directions to take. I'm still piecing together my approach and probably need a few more practice pieces to try and get it right.

Re: Small drop-lip container, finally

..."the undulating curves would register it naturally".

Yes it would - but it would slide/fall when moved sideways.  Similar to a regular box without a tenon.  Hopefully (never tried to post a photo before) - here is a photo of a curved lid box (2018) with an added sleeve.

Re: Small drop-lip container, finally

Wow, nice first attempt at photo uploading, and what a fine work of art. I see what you're saying about the registration issues. How did you add the sleeve? What about using a couple little brass pins?

Ellis

tom is right...

I was thinking that if you turn a similar form, but shaped like the lid you want, and turn it upside down and rotate it 90 degrees (I see WC doesn't like the ASCII degree symbol (alt-167) -- Peter?), it could be made to be a close enough fit to adjust with carving/sanding, but Tom is right -- there would be nothing to hold it in place.  

Re: Small drop-lip container, finally

Thanks, Ellis.  It was made for a club holiday turners exchange … finished a few hours before the meeting.

Brass pins would work (or dowels) but probably would be a little fiddly aligning the holes for registration.  Especially when trying to drill vertical holes on a tapered surface like in Craig’s photo.

As I recall, I mounted the lid in a chuck and turned a slight recess with a parting tool (kind of like a natural edge bowl) a little beyond the highest curve.  Then turned a cylinder to fit the ID of the recess – parted in on the cylinder to make a pipe-like cylinder – parted it off – glued into recess.  Then turned the sleeve to match the interior of the lid.  Then carved the sleeve to match the curve of the box opening.

If you look carefully you can see the glue line where the two woods meet on the interior of the lid in the photo below.  Box is Maple and the sleeve was cut from a Sycamore branch.

Re: tom is right...

This first attempt is not one that I would try to put a lid on. The way the sides taper poses unnecessary problems.

If you turn the curve on one side, as previously discussed, mounted it bowl orientation and drill in with a good sized Forstner bit you will have a hole that is (naturally) round with sides parallel to the opening. This is important for creation of a lid that will fit. Yes, you can open the hole to a greater diameter, but keeping the opening circular when looking at it directly on is key. Anything south of the lowest point of the lip can be hollowed to match the shape of that lower portion. Yes, this will make it a bit top heavy.

So now the lid. Turn another piece with a curved side with a radius of the curve maybe 3/16" greater than the base. This is the part of the lid that will lap over the opening of the base. Now switch to a bowl orientation and first turn to a diameter 1/4" or so greater than the diameter of the circular opening of the base. Mark off the size of the opening in the base on the inside of the lid...or just a hair less. Turn a cylinder within the lid to that diameter. Hollow that cylinder. This is the tenon that will fit into the base and seat the lid. The lowest point of this cylinder's lip should be able to remain in tact, but going toward the highest point will need to be carved away if you want a uniform inner lip on the lid. It can fit a little loose. The curvature of the parts should help it seat itself in a proper orientation.

 A bit more detail on the measurements, but I think this will work.

sounds like a plan...

... let us know how it works!  

Nice form...

too bad about the crack. The concept of creating a lid for this makes my head hurt. Possibly with three axes and some hand shaping, but keeping it attached to the lathe and in what order do them are a bit beyond me at the moment.

Re: Nice form...

Thanks Leo. Me too, that's why I'm still mulling it over. (Plus I don't mull all that often, so I get some practice. ;-) )

I know, just do it and show how, but here's a new approach anyway...for the lidded box.

I have been playing with this idea, currently working on a vase.

This taller form got me thinking about the lidded box. Start with a piece of wood say 3x3x6 (maybe 7).

1) Mark the centers of the ends. (Spindle orientation markings)

2) Draw lines through the centers and up to the long side.

3) Draw a line down the center of the long sides.

4) Mark the center of the long sides.

5) Mount the blank between centers on the center marks of the long side.

6) Turn until you have a smooth curve across the ends. These will naturally have identical curves.

7) Mark the centers of the curved ends using the lines from the long sides to help.

Mount between centers. (Don't worry, the base of the box will be hollowed and the top will get a separately turned handle to cover center marks.)

9) Part the top from the base, leaving about 1/2" to 3/4" below the curve of the box top portion and with tenons on each portion for chuck mounting.

    NOTE: I'd personally turn tenons for each between centers and part the two sections on the miter saw.

11) Using a compass, draw an arc on the side of the base, compass point in the mounting points, about 1/4" from the curved end.

12) Remount the bottom box section between centers on the same marks used when turning the curved ends.

13) This will be an off-center turning, with some vibration to be expected. But box size should mean not bad.

      Turn the curved end down to the arc line. The difference between the lid curve and the base curve represents the thickness of the lid lip.

14) Mark center of the base and mount the base in your chuck and hollow the box, trying to keep the sides down to the lower portion of the drop lip as straight as possible. (This helps maintain a circular shape to the opening if viewed looking at the center of the opening.) Yes, probably best to shape the base a good bit before hollowing.

15) This may require 2 chucks. Finish turning the base, up to the point where it can remain in the chuck

16) Lid needs a handle which will also serve for mounting in the chuck using pen jaws or such. Probably best to drill a mortise hole on the drillpress. Base of the handle will best fit if there is a bead just above the tenon that will seat in the mortise. Turn the handle rough round, but with at least the lower half of the bead and the tenon complete.

17) Glue the handle into the top. (Epoxy may be appropriate. Would be my choice.)

18) Mount the lid in the chuck.

19) Measure the distance between the upper peaks of the box base opening and the distance between the lowest dips. Add a 1/4" to the larger distance and use it as the diameter to turn the lid to. (1/8" overlap of the lip when placed on the base.) This may be cutting it close. 1/2" instead of 1/4" may be better.

20) OK, have to take a break. Thinking of the inside curve of the lid may require some more thought...and it's lunch time. To be continued...