Hi guys. I've been learning to turn the Stuart Batty way and using his 40/40. I LOVE IT. He says in his videos that it has to be an elliptical or V shaped gouge, that a U shape will not work. It is time for me to buy some new, unhandled bowl gouges. Mine are getting short, and they're all "Ellsworth signature gouges". I'm uncertain but they appear elliptical internal shaped to me. I like the 5/8" size. Looking at gouges online at various sources, none of them describe the internal shape. I see Carter and Sons and OneWay mastercut tools look right and I have Mahoney's bottom feeder, also someone online appears to have a remaining lot of P&N V shaped gouges in the right size at a really reasonable price but Stuart says the flute is too long and produces chatter. BUT it is really right priced. I guess I could contact Carter but figured y'all would know and I haven't asked a question in years! Thx
I like the Thompson gouges. I can't find a diagram or photo of the cross section of his "V" gouge but could probably take a picture if that would help.
His web site has a photo but not shot directly from the end.
I see you've discovered the joy of the big curved NRS! I have too, and have been using them for a while, ground from Thompson scrapers and skew chisel.
I ground most of mine a bit different than the "other guys". Instead of a curved end I grind an almost flat on the end. Since the nearly flat end scrapes a wider area at once it lets me remove tool marks (and any tear out) far easier on shallow curves, nearly flats, and especially wings when cutting air. Scraping with the flat can bring down the just the high spots and I find using the tool straight on to the work makes the fine control easy, even for a first-time student.
I like how these scrapers work so well that I grind similar bevels on the tang end of the big scrapers for smaller things (I use all these scrapers handheld since there are no forces involved).
The NRS, followed a bit of smoothing with curved hand (cabinet) scrapers, lets me go from the lathe to a perfect surface with minimal sanding, with zero power sanding with coarse rotating disks. I sometimes just sand by hand or with gentle sanding with fine grits on small pneumatic random orbital sanders as needed. (I haven't used my angle drill for a decade and I think 220 grit is the coarsest I've had to use, usually finer.)
I've been using the curved scrapers cabinet scrapers for a long time but the NRS lets me start the hand scraping on a much smoother surface.
Life is good.
I wrote about all this here, if you want to take a look:
Well, I prefer Thompson and D Way tools. Doug does make a U shaped flute, and I have no problems with the 40/40 with it, though I prefer a 45/45.The 40/40 is just too pointy for me. The U does not seem to take the swept back profile very well though, but seeing that I don't use the swept back gouges at all, it doesn't make any difference to me.
...bottom profile than more pointy original Glaser or P&N V flutes, and takes a swept back wing grind well. His U flute is a real U profile, and somewhat more aggressive than traditional parabolic flutes on Sorby, Oneway, DWay, etc.
Hi John! Long time. Thanks for the great response. I love that you ground the tangs! Great idea. I have a large old skew that I ground to 20/20 for NRS, and agree with what you've found. I just am still in the "blown away" phase, having been basically doing the same exact old thing for 15 years or so.
I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate _some_ of these ideas into my introductory bowl turning class, but not sure how much I can push into a 3 hour class.
I heard Stuart once mention that the Oneway bowl gouge flutes lend themselves OK to the 40-40. I have a 5/8 Ellsworth and see it as very close in flute shape to the Oneway, which I also have. The Oneways are now M4, I believe.
The "Masterflute" shape, mostly now from Henry Taylor or Glenn Lucas, may also be suitable. They look to me to be a more open parabolic shape though I haven't had my hands on them. The one Carter I have seen up close, belonging to one of my students, was distinctly V-shaped, though they may now have others. Stuart also said, I think, that V-shapes don't work so well for 40-40, though others here seem to report success.
I'm wondering where you teach, Mike -- I'm down in Annapolis at Maryland Hall.
Thanks Chuck! I teach at "The Foundery" www.foundery.com . It is in South Baltimore and is Bmore's premier makerspace (owned by Under Armor). I'm the only bowl turning instructor, and recently (happily) they found someone else to teach "lathe safety basics" so I can turn out more bowl classes as there's always a wait. You coming up to the Timonium WW show next month? Maybe we can get together.
I'm not familiar with that place but it sounds good. Mark Supik also teaches some woodturning in Baltimore, marksupikco.com. I do expect to be up at Timonium with the Chesapeake Woodturners for the show and would be happy to meet there.
Are you the fellow I bought my 3520 from about 12 years ago, up in Towson? It's still going strong!
Wow, time flies, and you've been away for quite a while. Glad to hear all's well and that you're paying forward some of your hard-won experience and knowledge.
Keep us posted on your tool grinds. People are always interested.
I know nothing of the 40 40 grind and as I always state all the big names have their sthick. Any of these pros could cut with just about any grind and I've seen it many times. The Thompson U gouge doesn't do wings but for me is aggressive. I favor the Thompson V gouge. Takes any kind of wing you want to put on it and I find it very controllable. You want a great 5/8 gouge? See if Doug Thompson has any 5/8 Deep V gouges made. My go to tool is the Thompson 5/8 V as well as the 1/2 V and the 3/8 V. I now use the hat makers grind on my gouges as it is almost impossible to get a catch towards the 3 and 9 position. Dave at D-Way makes a good tool but I would never ever even touch a carter & son tool, don't ask. Root around and you will find that answer.
The secret of any grind? Practice, practice, practice, that is how come the Pros are Pros.
>>>...and as I always state all the big names have their sthick. Any of these pros could cut with just about any grind ... The secret of any grind? Practice, practice, practice, that is how come the Pros are Pros.
In searching for the magic grind and we sometimes forget the practice part.
Some years ago I was mystified by the variety and kept acquiring and regrinding tools to match the last turner who impressed me. I finally decided it was mostly a matter of using a different tool and grind a little until I got the feel for how it handles.
One nice thing about the 40/40 is how quick it is to sharpen.
I do have one of Lyle's Thompson made gouges, and as near as I can tell, it is a more open V than the standard V that Doug makes for his tools. Unless I look closely, I can't tell the difference.
When I was teaching myself to turn I didn't know any other turners and did not utilize the internet for learning turning purposes. So as I learned to turn I also had to learn to sharpen my tools. As I ground away good steel trying to achieve a uniform grind based on pictures I had seen in various wood turning books I eventually learned to use the grind that I ended up with. My problem, in addition to not knowing how to sharpen was that I didn't know how to use the tools.
Practice and trial and error eventually corrected both. I can now bludgeon a piece of wood into submission and almost never, seldom if ever have to use 40 grit paper.
I was able to spend a weekend with Nick Cook and he looked at my tools and said they were ground just fine and explained the advantages and disadvantages of longer bevels vs. shorter bevels. He showed me how to grind some variations of what I had. Now I keep several gouges ground with different profiles for use specific jobs.
Ultimately lots of practice is the secret to turning. Some people can use a 5/8" Ellsworth bowl gouge with his signature grind for everything they do. I have seen one friend of mine use such a gouge to turn 18" long stem goblets and then use the same tool to turn a sphere.
It was Timonium, but close enough! Glad you still have it. I now work on 2 G0766s, bascially knock offs of that 3520. Need to build a ballast box for them though.
I'll probably be hanging around at the "Foundery" display during the WW show quite a bit. See you there.
He's not easy to find. Mahoney on the other hand - just chatted with him the other day. Plus, posting on a forum makes the info and discussion available and valuable for all. I'm enjoying updating my turning techniques. Like others I've relied on the Ellsworth grind for like 15 year or so. I think I know how to use it by now. Learning how to use a few new grinds and techniques however has improved my shapes and decreased overall time spent on a bowl dramatically. The clean cut of the 40/40 and the NRS together make for a better finish than I've seen on many "finished" items brought to local turning clubs for show and tell. I'm still in the infatuation phase.
Back in July, Amiliano Archaval had an excellent live demo with Stuart on Facebook. Just checked and it is readily available if you do a search for Stuart Batty on FB. A bit over an hour. I watched it at the time but have not found time to explore the 40/40 grind.
I'm in the market for a new bowl gouge and it seems that the Thompson 5/8v would be a good choice for me. There is also his professional line Bill Grumbine 5/8v bowl gouge. Does anyone know the difference?
They both have the same V flue. The Bill Grumbine has a longer stem so it can reach further into big bowls. If big bowls are not in your plans, you don't need it. Read the specs in Thompson tools site.
