Shop Illumination

Re: Shop Illumination

John K Jordan

Since this is in Turning, I'll comment on that. I far prefer several small diameter lights at and over the lathe. Most are repositionable as needed. The worst lighting at a lathe is even, diffuse lighting such evenly spaced fluorescents high overhead. Several smaller "point source" lights let you see and evaluate compound curves when turning. Smaller lights illuminating the work at an glancing angle can reveal scratches that are invisible with diffuse lighting.

This shows some of my lights at the lathe.

Overhead in the shop I use T5 fluorescents in 4-bulb fixtures. These are incredibly bright at 4000 lumens per bulb; the color temperature is daylight and suits me. A friend said he needs sunglasses wen all the lights are on.

I wire the T5s using a feature built into the ballasts that let me turn on just 1/2 the bulbs until I need the extra light. I also wire them in zones so I can light up one area brightly without lighting the rest of the shop. In addition, a string of lower brightness LED bulbs in recessed fixtures lights a path through the rooms of the entire shop so I can fetch tools and such without turning on the brights.

The primary light over the lathe (on the gooseneck) is the very bright Supernova from Woodturners Wonders. I checked the color temperature and it matches my daylight photo lights so well I use another at the photo booth. I like them in general for task lights I also keep one over each lathe, the bandsaw, sharpening station, and drill press. Not exactly cheap but old eyes need brighter lights.

JKJ

Re: Shop Illumination

jorge

Thank you John K nice set up. What you said about scratches becoming invisible, is one of the reasons I did ask; I will check the T5 fluorescent, but I know the flicker bothers my eyes so I was thinking LED fixtures, I have a Home despot and a Lowe's with ready to go offerings, very different from each other and did not see any 4000 Lumens offering. Through my builders supplies, I can order anything out there, as long as I know the name and product #.

That Supernova from Woodturners Wonders looks awfully good, reminds me from one I had in my draftsman days.

Thanks anew

Re: Shop Illumination

John K Jordan

I don't think you'll see any flicker from T5 bulbs. The electronic ballasts run at a high frequency, I think around 20,000 HZ compared to 60 HZ for "traditional" T12 and T8.

Before I bought fixtures for my shop (the T5 are not cheap) I bought just one and temporarily hung it from the ceiling. I liked the light better than that from the LED fixtures I've tried.

If you do go with LED, try to see if the fixture you are considering has a good heat sink to keep the bulbs cooler. I've had a lot of LEDs fail in the last few years, apparently from heat. My favorite has the strip of LEDs bonded to the inside of a fairly heavy aluminum fixture body, great for removing heat. (I use this one in the barn)

Another thing - if an LED element fails the entire fixture is probably trashed. If installing LEDs I'd be tempted to use the LED bulbs that fit into a fluorescent fixture, intended to replace the fluorescents.

JKJ

Re: Shop Illumination

jorge

you are right John at 20,000 Hz the will be no flicker, our eyes wont' read it.

Lots of valuable info you gave me here. Gracias Señor!

Re: Shop Illumination

john lucas

Jorge I went with LED 4foot shop lights for over head. ON the lathe I purchased one of Ken Rizza's big lights. The trick to seeing scratches is to use a point source light or a light that is small in diameter and then being able to move it around so it casts shadows in the scratches. Ken's magnetic light is great for this. I also bought a small magnetic light that is only 1" in diameter. I sometimes put in on the bed of the lathe and move it around. Being smaller in diameter it produces harsher shadows and shows of scratches more easily. I think I bought it from Mike Hare who is often a vendor at the symposiums.

Re: Shop Illumination

mikeee12345

LED lighting is very intense compared to most other sources of light used in shop lighting. With each LED module creating an intense source of illumination you need to use a lens to diffuse the light source or use reflectors to direct the light where you need it. If the luminaire has exposed LED modules that you can look at directly they can be an irritation to the person working in the area. When you install LED in your shop make sure you position them to reduce the direct exposure to your eyes from the LED's in each work area. LED's can be like someone shining a flashlight in your eyes if they are not installed correctly.

Re: Shop Illumination

Hugh

I use mostly the 4 foot LED lights in the shop.

I also have two lights attached to the lathe.

When I had the shop built, I told the contractor what I wanted. His placement and mine were not exactly the same. But, I did not want to pay for the change order at the time. This was before LED lighting.

Now....15 years later......I want more.

I would think about putting in about twice as much lighting as you think you need. Then it is there when your eyes get older and would like more light.

I have lots of windows in my shop and is pretty light.

But, I have been thinking of putting in some "can" lights in places over the work benches and the lathe....and anywhere else I think it would improve things.

On the subject of electrical outlets...….put in about twice as many of them also. It is not that you have something running in all of them all the time......but then they are there when you want them.

Hugh

Re: Shop Illumination

Dale Bonertz

I don't know if this would help you Jorge. I have the T-5 as general lighting above my lathe. I use for turning lighting cheap floor lamps turned upside down and fastened to the 9' ceiling. They have the flexible arms in which I use daylight LED bulbs that have a plastic cover over them (just in case something goes flying, thankfully that hasn't happened). I can move the arms anywhere that is needed and since one has five arms and the other four arms I can set lighting all over the piece while turning, sanding or etc. I don't know how to attach a picture here so I sent a picture to be added into shop shots.

Re: Shop Illumination

John K Jordan

>>>I would think about putting in about twice as much lighting as you think you need. Then it is there when your eyes get older and would like more light.

That's what I did with the T5 fixtures. I normally use the feature to enable just 1/2 the bulbs, plenty of light for most things. I occasionally enable the other bulbs in each zone as needed.

I figure if someday I need extra light all the time it will be ready.

Thanks everybody!

jorge

I just marked the places of outlets and switches, and followed the advice to put more than needed. Still ruminating about the light fixtures. Going to visit a friends shop the see his set up, he is happy with it

.

wiring, etc

John K Jordan

>>>I just marked the places of outlets and switches, and followed the advice to put more than needed. Still ruminating about the light fixtures. Going to visit a friends shop the see his set up, he is happy with it.

See if YOU would be happy with it!

I put duplex receptacles every 4' about 52" from the floor (so they wouldn't be behind things) and I'm glad I did. I put quad receptacles in key places, especially at easily accessible locations where I might temporarily plug in a cord and above where I wanted a work surface. I hung several 110v reels above central areas so I wouldn't have to run extension cords for hand power tools, knife sharpener, etc. Put 220v receptacles where machines were going to be and ran 50 amp 220v to where the 5hp motors would be and to the welding area. A few 110 and a 50amp outside for welding when the weather permitted.

I tried to position lights where needed but to prevent glare. For example, my PM table saw has a shiny surface and I didn't want glare from a bright fixture mounted in the wrong place. I moved a 4-bulb T5 fixture to several temporary places on the ceiling to evaluate the spread of the light before planning the layout.

Although I drew plans for everything I still ended up making a few changes later, but fortunately the lights and outlets were still in useful places. I built the shop from scratch and paneled the walls with 1/2" ply so I could hang things anywhere. The 1/2" panels on the walls (and ceiling) are put up with deck screws so I can remove them to easily make changes in wiring and compressed air plumbing if needed. (I took down one panel three times!)

For multiple task lights at the lathes, bandsaw, and mill/metal lathe I put in several outlets controlled by a single wall switch at each location so I can turn on all lights in those places with one switch.

JKJ

Re: wiring, etc

jorge

Thanks John,

I did put the lower part of outlets and switches at 52" above the floor and yes I will panel with plywood painted white. I will follow your advice and get a lghting fixture and move it around the shop to decide location of the lights.

One question is the optimal location of the air filter for small particles in relation to the lathe.

Re: Optimal location?

William Duffield

The obvious answer is "on your face."

When analyzing dust collector hood location, you need to consider what you will be sanding and where you hold the sandpaper. For example, the dust comes off the sandpaper in a different direction depending on whether you hold it on top of or on the bottom of a spindle. For bowls, the ejection path is different for the outside vs. the inside of the bowl. You also need to analyze where the air flow is coming from, and use that air flow to direct the dust away from your face and towards the dust collector hood. Probably, the worst place to position the air source is directly behind you, because the eddies created by the air flowing around both sides of your body carries the dust right back towards your face and chest.

Locations of supplied air and dust collection hood need to be made as easily and as flexibly repositioned as possible, and analysis of what and where you are sanding needs to be thought about for every sanding task.

air filter

John K Jordan

Do you mean a ceiling air filter like the Jet? The instructions say best to mount it close to a long wall to generate a large rotational air movement through the shop. You can use a smoke stick to check.

The shape of the shop might prevent optimum positioning. I'd be careful to not have it blowing or pulling air from a tight corner. It can also be mounted directly on the wall, turned so what was the bottom is now vertical.

If the situation is imperfect I think I'd position the unit so air output was toward the lathe to move the very fine dust away from me and into the room for eventual circulation. Positioned the other way, there is the risk that eddies within a larger space in the shop might short circuit the desired larger loop and never pull air past where it's needed. Again, a smoke stick (or punk, incense stick, etc) could let you check the circulation in specific areas.

A panel jack will let you easily position it near the ceiling to test candidate positions. (You need one anyway if you plan to put 1/2" plywood on the ceiling!

JKJ

Those overhead box filters are......

JamieDonaldson

....totally not optimal for collecting dust from turning. A collector hood directly behind the lathe work is best, and the collection system can be located in a place convenient by running ducts as necessary. This collection system should be a primary priority in designing your shop layout, and it can be utilized with several other machines with proper location of collectors matched to dust sources.

Re: Those overhead box filters are......

John K Jordan

>>>....totally not optimal for collecting dust from turning.

You are absolutely right. However, as an auxiliary aid I find the air cleaner great for clearing out fine dust that was missed, dust which may float in the air for some time.

I'm always amazed at how much the nozzle behind the lathe picks up. While sanding a spindle I've watched fine dust from almost 2' down the lathe travel horizontally to the pickup. I see fines and shavings coming off the tool towards me make a u-turn and get sucked into the pickup. (5hp ClearVue cyclone.) But it certainly doesn't get all of it. I still wear a respirator.

My Dylos particulate counter indicated suspended dust is cleared from the air much faster when the air filter is running. I particularly liked it before I had a good cyclone and caught almost none of the fine dust. I could leave the shop and come back later and the air would be clean and I could work without a respirator until I make some more dust.

JKJ

Re: Those overhead box filters are......

bill tucker

John, back to the lighting...took advantage of a sale @ Costco to grab "plug and play" 4 foot LED tubes to replace my old flouresents. They said no need to mess with the ballasts, just replace. 2 questions: Do the ballasts still eat power? And if I bypass them and wire through direct, will the LED tubes still work right?

These may be unfair questions, but if anybody knows, you will.

Thanks.

LED bulbs

John K Jordan

>>>...plug and play" 4 foot LED tubes to replace my old flouresents. They said no need to mess with the ballasts... Do the ballasts still eat power? And if I bypass them and wire through direct, will the LED tubes still work right?

These may be unfair questions, but if anybody knows, you will.

Ha! I have zero experience with LED replacement bulbs other than reading that some people have used them. Do the instructions not give a hint? A question to the maker or distributor?

I suspect the ballasts will use power since they are still attached to the wiring and the bulbs have to get their power there. How much is wasted I don't know. One thing to check would be to open up a fixture and measure the current going through wires to the ballasts with the power on with and and without the LED bulbs connected. But for a fair check, you'd have to also measure the current used by an equivalent LED bulb of the type that requires removing/bypassing the ballast.

I'd be wary though of LED bulbs that rely on power that goes through the ballasts. What happens if the ballasts die - do you have to go buy and install new fluorescent ballasts? Will ballasts designed for fluorescents last longer or shorter if used with LEDs? Maybe someone with actual experience and knowledge will answer!

One thing still worries me about LEDs - the LED emitters will last for decades if kept from overheating but the electronics to provide the power at the proper frequency is still the weak link. The electronics are either built into the fixture or like CFLs, into the base of replaceable LED bulbs.

I've had several fixtures with non-replaceable LED elements go bad and start flickering (including two porch lights on the shop in the last year) and the only thing to do is buy new fixtures unless I saved the receipt. Fortunately, LED bulbs are getting cheaper. But I think hard before I buy a fixture with non-replaceable bulbs - it has to be cheap enough to consider it a consumable, but even then the trouble to remove and replace it is time consuming.

JKJ

Re: Those overhead box filters are......

Ric Taylor

Bill, you hit on an important point.

I replaced my florescents with 4-foot LED tubes. I was having to replace the florescent tubes on a regular basis and I'm getting to old to be climbing up on stools to do that.

There are two types of LED tubes and you have to be careful to purchase the correct type. One type does not need a ballast, so if you put those in an old florescent fixture you have to wire around the old ballast.

The other type uses the ballast that is in the old florescent fixture, so all you have to do is pull out the florescent bulb and put in the LED bulb. That is what I did. There is the possibility of the ballast going bad at some point, but I've had this setup for several years now with no issues at all.

I really like them, they put out bright light and never have a humming noise. Also, they come on bright when it is cold, there is no waiting for a dim florescent bulb to come up to full brightness.

Re: LED bulbs

Tom Gall

So far this year I've replaced most of my fluorescents with 30 of the 4'-LED tubes from Rockler. When they go on sale again ($8 ea.) I'll replace many of the remaining fluo-tubes I have in my shop. These are the "plug & play" type. I have a 4-tube (2- ballast) fixture right above my lathe. I just had to replace the ballast last week. At $20 a pop I hope all my other ballasts hold up, because I have six more 4-tube industrial fixtures in my shop that were removed from a commercial demolition and are probably at least thirty years old.

JDS -Air Tech- 750 ER

jorge

William my unit is the JDS -Air Tech- 750 ER, to trap the fine dust and clean the air in the shop after sanding or sharpening with the CBN wheels.

Those fine dusts are my concerns.

For the shavings I just will have a shower courtain to contain them, easy enough to shovel. I will miss the Oneida, but that unit was the only casualty when the roof collapsed a couple years ago

Re: air filter

jorge

Thanks again John, I will use the smoke stick to find the location. The shop is roughly 20' x20' with 10' ceilings

Check the WoodCentral Articles

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I wrote an Article there on lighting that will answer many of your questions, including color quality. In choosing lights you should consider amount of light(lumens), color of the light(color temperature), and quality of the color(CRI). All this information is on the lamp box. My brother-in-law is a GE lighting engineer. He helped me with my shop lighting and writing this Article.

If your fluorescents flicker you are using lighting technology equivalent to carbon steel lathe tools and step pulleys. The cause is magnetic ballasts that have not been made in decades. Current fluorescents do not flicker or hum.

T5's come in two varieties, T5 and T5HO (high output). T5HO fixtures are available at Home Depot but not at Lowes. You can deliver 20,000 lumens from one 4-lamp fixture. I used them in critical shop areas like over a vice where I dovetail and over the table saw.

Re: Check the WoodCentral Articles

mikeee12345

There is one simple rule I have tried to convey on lighting projects over the last 4-5 decades. You have quantity of light and quality of light, one is easy on the pocket book and hard on the eyes, the other is needed if you spend hours each day working in the artificial illuminated area.

The other aspect of newer technology lighting systems is the poor quality of the solid state power supplies that add harmonic distortion to your electrical system. For the average end user this is not a problem, but if you have a large percentage of solid state driven equipment on your electrical system you can incur problems on the electrical systems from harmonic distortion. Many of the newer technology lighting system solid state power supplies can produce 20-25% harmonic distortion on your electrical system, this can cause breakers to trip, switch contacts to heat up, electrical panels heating up, transformers running hot, component failures on other solid state systems. The harmonics tend to target the components in the electrical system that has the lowest impedance in the circuit. This impedance can vary depending on what is running in your facility at that time.