*** HOT TOPICS: Taking suggestions...

Re: *** HOT TOPICS: Taking suggestions...

TomD

"To me, many of these objects are demonstrably works of art, where the actual turning is incidental."

The turning is never incidental to the turning. People do art on paper, and nobody talks all that much about the Art with which the paper was made. Ornamentation on turnings probably has a lot of origins, but at the point where the turning is incidental, then incidentally, the art isn't turning. There is a paper making art, it just isn't the paper in a charcoal drawing, for the most part.

There are a lot of reasons why something more than the turned form is often involved in turning, these might include:

- People ran out of inspiration as to what could be done with that alone, and also where too close in time to those names that had done the early art turning to feel comfortable about trespassing on their work. You might feel you were taking something from Stockdale, but people probably don't even know where those forms first came from or care.

- People got bored with the early forms;

- People who can draw, or carve, did, once the prejudice against that was lost;

- People wanted to use available materials, and get more into them as far as adding value;

- There is a whole culture to turning that is different, clubs, working up to shows, gaining, ones own style; selling work; doing demos, etc...

- The work accumulates very quickly so you have to shift it. Some people have come up with personalizations that are very fast to do and make producing work for sale efficient.

- Creativity is fun.... And so on.

"This raises some questions that I think are worth discussing: Where does turning end and sculpture begin?"

What is the practical value of sculpture? It can be ornamental, artistic, is it ever purely utilitarian (leaving out say it's use to conceal something like a pillar that is utilitarian. Oddly in turning, there are many objects, and many decorative things, yet for some reason bowls are so central. Yet, there was a need for tuning at a purely utilitarian level.

I don't think turning ends and sculpture begins, I think in some cases they are apart, and in other cases turning is nested within sculpture.

"Are turnings art in their own right, sans decorative work?"

Decorative work is not mainly, or probably even often fine art. Neither is most turning. With fine art the object is more than just an object. Something else either didactic, or with meaning is also present.

That something is fine art some seem to treat as though the piece had a gold medal at the olympics, but a lot of it is probably at the level of the local track meet. Being fine art is what something is, it does not make it great. I can't personally point to very many fine art pieces in the woodworking world, which is probably why woodworking isn't taken that seriously. There is a great deal of very fine woodworking in the form of small "a" art. An enormous amount of carving from earlier centuries. Not too much turning comes close to that.

Is this part of the art vs craft debate? Aesthetics? Functional vs decorative?

Re: *** HOT TOPICS: Taking suggestions...

mikeee12345

There are many variables to consider when looking at this topic. Styles, Colors and Textures come and go if you are looking at the "décor" end of the market. The art collector can have varied styles they are collecting or marketing to. Collectors that are adding to a specific type of collection (pens, tops, shaving brushes, etc.) Specialty items that follow trends in society (barbeque, baking, sports, outdoor activities, hunting, fishing, survival skills, cutlery, etc.) All of these variables are trends that come and go over time and usually return to the market place over the decades.

Ask 5 artists, you'll get 10 opinions

Dick Coers

You should get lots of discussion with no agreement! LOL

Re: Ask 5 artists, you'll get 10 opinions

Ron Bauer

The most important question...and the only one that really matters, is "What do YOU think you are?" It don't mean a damn what anyone else thinks.

Re: *** HOT TOPICS: Taking suggestions...

Tom Lightner

Simply put, I think many of these so-called "art pieces" are not turnings at all! The maker is merely using some application of a lathe to make the piece. It is very difficult to discern where the turning has occurred in many instances. I guess it is what it is these days!

Re: *** HOT TOPICS: Taking suggestions...

john lucas

The lathe is simply a carving tool. what ever tool you use after the lathe, which in most cases is the first carving tools, doesn't really matter to me. It's all about the final product. Does the customer like it or not. People who buy your work don't ask if it was made on the lathe or how much turning is involved. Only turners worry about that.

Now granted if there is a competition with prizes then the definition of how much or how little turning is involved needs to be defined quite accurately.

Re: *** HOT TOPICS: Taking suggestions...

Barry L Elder

Well, deep subject of a million thoughts from a million people! After spending thousands of hours, maybe, cutting up many trees that had been destroyed by the hurricanes of 2004, I remember becoming hypnotized by all the shavings coming off the wood, seagrape, in this case, how the piece changed with every revolution on my 1236, and I learned how to make that lathe dance and sing and turn beautiful pieces out of God's wood that he had given to me, or I should say US! And then, I think about how many new turners have tried to get started, struggled, and went on to something else that wasn't so complicated?! Did we ignore them, deny them, refuse them, or have we nurtured them to become our survivors?!

I know a few have taken them in hand so they can learn the beauty of the wood that grows all around us, and Bless You for it!

Re: *** HOT TOPICS: Taking suggestions...

Rum

TomD said:

"People do art on paper, and nobody talks all that much about the Art with which the paper was made."

Clearly you're not hanging around with the paper people Seriously I've seen pieces where the nature of the paper added thousands to the base price of the piece and was an integral part of the artistry.

In general asking "what it art" is pretty much arguing the number of angels on the head of a pin. I think you can pretty much relegate the "what is turning" to the same pile.

Some pick and choose mix of does it work, do you enjoy it, does it sell, do others enjoy it. Everything else is vanity.

Frankly, turners are organized?

Steven Antonucci

I think that most of the interest in turning is simply because woodturners have been organized for 30+ years? Have ever see the American Woodcarvers Association? Or the American Wood Sculptor Society? They hand around "the round and brown" crowd because we have a home.

Second, people try to fit everything like a Procrustean Bed (google it, only thing that stuck with me from Greek literature). Some days, I make art. Other days, I make a bowl. A bowl can be art, but it can also just be a bowl? There is nothing wrong with it just being a bowl.

I see a lot of people wanting their bowls to be art...but its just bowl. Or a thing with lots of holes cut in it. Not anywhere near as much art as the crowd would like to portray...

Re: Frankly, turners are organized?

Barry Irby

I sometimes consider VALUE like this, I you and I were stranded on a deserted island and I had a turkey sandwich and you had a gold bar, It would not be long before you were willing to trade that gold bar for the sandwich.

So, If We were on that island and I had a rownd and brown bowl full of delicious rolls and you had the finest empty art bowl ever made.....?

What others think can make a huge financial shift

Dick Coers

I did a local art show for years. Never did really well, but still did it for advertising for my custom woodworking business. One year, I just did wood boxes, no furniture. A family known for their support for the art community was quite taken by the boxes. They bought a couple and then others came up telling me what that family had told them about my work and they bought boxes. After judging, I won best in craft. Recognition from that influential family made a huge difference for me that year.

Second example; I started participating in a local artist studio open house. I became great friends with the owners of that studio. They introduced me to a number of art patrons. One in particular was enamored with a large bowl. The next month he told me to start making them for him when I could get the large stock. I asked how many, he said just keep making them. He bought every 18" bowl I could make for over a year. Ended up buying 20 of them. With the introduction from another artist, in the proper setting, I got a huge boost in sales.

I've said it often. The only way you become an real artist is when you get a patron. Up until then, you are a craftsman.

Re: *** HOT TOPICS: Taking suggestions...

Dale Gillaspy

I really think John Lucas hit the nail on the head. The lathe is a tool just like any other. If you restrict it to the "round and brown" category, then you would have people saying it's not really turning if you use carbide scrapers and not gouges. Where does it end?

I think there is a lot of art in round and brown, and a good bowl is a work of art in itself. That being said, there are times that a piece calls for more, either embellishment or additional carving.

I wouldn't dare tell someone it is not a turning because of the time on the lathe involved. Bonnie Klein comes to mind. I think her pieces are great, and often times you can't tell where the turning ends and the carving begins. I wouldn't dare tell her they are not turnings or she is "not a member of the club," so to speak.