Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

Peter Hyde

I've always used the term "roll" Plus when giving instruction I go through the various movements that you can make with a cutting edge. But it all comes down to feel. The brain has to connect to the hand and be aware of what is happening at the cutting edge. But there are also other indicators such as sound and physical vibration. I have sat watching demos by well known turners and predicted a catch or a projectile just from the sound the tool is making on the wood.

The cutting edge can be moved up and down, side to side and rotated and the movement dictates just how efficient the cut is. Add speed of rotation variation into the mix and we now have a palette of choices to get us the cut needed in a safe and efficient manner. It's a slow learning process and success is usually indicated by the decrease in catches

For Example, What is a "Flute"

Don Stephan

It's hard to imagine a discussion about gouge use without the term "flute" but it's only in the last few months, when I was struggling to help another turner, that I stopped to think about the definition. I can't recall ever seeing "flute" defined with text and diagrams, and it's a basic concept used all the time.

Last month I started to think of a flute more specifically as the space removed when a gouge is made. This morning however I realized this removed or negative space is three dimensional and I think "flute" commonly is used to refer to a two dimensional shape, perhaps defined as the inner cross sectional profile of a gouge, whether spindle roughing, spindle, or bowl. I'm guessing that profile is a portion or arc of a circle on the various types of spindle gouge (roughing, spindle, detail, spindle detail), and the commonly mentioned U, V, and parabola for bowl gouges.

But this makes a "flute" a profile fixed in manufacturing of the gouge, so are then "open the flute" and "close the flute" inherently confusing terms because we cannot change the profile?

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

Don Stephan

I agree completely, and am not being disrespectful. But how do these statements help a turner analyze a less satisfactory cut and make appropriate correction? Trial and error have not been satisfying for me unless my fundamental understanding of tool presentation and cutting are enhanced. It is only in the last few weeks that I have changed my approach from trial and error to experiment based on a less than complete understanding of how the various tools "work" at the surface of the wood.

Like any skilled trade, new vocabulary

Dick Coers

I see no issue with the vocabulary. If you wanted to learn book binding, blacksmithing, or glass blowing, they all have their own terms and vocabulary. In fact I rather enjoyed learning and perfecting the terms and my skills. It's a point of pride for me to learn both. I know there is a group that just wants to shove a carbide tool into a spinning piece of wood on day one to make a bowl. To me, the journey is a major part of the pleasure. It really doesn't matter to me either if the terms aren't 100% with everyone. I learned at seminars and from a class with John Jordan. As long as I make curls, it works for me! Maybe this just reinforces the need for mentoring and AAW chapters?

Re: Like any skilled trade, new vocabulary

mikeee12345

When working within a trade it helps to have precise definitions and terms for various methods, words, techniques and materials used. Many of the trades used vague terms and many of these had regional origins which complicates the issue even more so. A number of the trade associations have spent the last decade updating and precisely defining words and definitions in the code books so they reduce the conflicts and misinterpretations when the codes are applied. This has caused 1000's of changes to the code books and

a learning curve for everyone having to use these codes. One of these trades had over 10,000 changes during one of the code cycles being published every 3-years. The latest code book has 1300 pages and the tradesman working in the trade need to know the information in these codes. Getting it right in the first place reduces all of the corrections later on when we have to correct our poorly worded and defined terms.

"precise definitions and terms?"

Dick Coers

We're not talking "rocket surgery" here! We can have precise definitions and terms when you start doing that predicted 3D printing replacement of hand turning a block of wood. Until then, it's fine where it's at for me!

I get what you are getting at...

Steven Antonucci

I see a lot of people using the term "ride the bevel" and then I watch them cut and they are nowhere near riding the bevel.

I see people talking about "grinding multiple bevels"...when they really mean "grinding off the heal", since you cannot actually cut if the edge isn't touching the wood.

Yeah... language.

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

john lucas

Well Don that is what I'm trying to do and it was suggested by the new editor of Woodturning Fundamentals (and I can't say who it is yet but it's really going to be good). Discussions about flute, and or flute shape are usually in each book about turning although sometimes it may just be short description when describing tools.

Flute shape doesn't matter when discussing open or close. The general consensus about this by educated teachers is that when the tool is not cutting the flute is closed. Such as when you are inside a bowl and the flute is pointing toward 3 oclock. The flute is open when the gouge is rotated so that the tool is cutting which means it's rotated CCW somewhere between 3 and 12. That's the definition I was looking for. Flute shape doesn't matter because this would be the same for a 1" wide relatively flat spindle gouge or a deep U shaped bowl gouge.

Rubbing the bevel can be hard for a beginner to understand but we have to start with a definition of the term. I just finished some photos to go along with that definition to try and help people learn. We are also trying to descibe how to measure the angle of a tool, and why this important to understand. Also how to set the grinder to achieve that angle. He asked a lot of good questions and I'm trying to answer them as best I can and if I don't know or need a clearer answer I ask on the forums to make sure we are all talking on the same page.

I do see a lot of demos where they guy mentions rubbing the bevel but then during the demo is not rubbing the bevel for some cuts. But at the same time, they volunteered to do a demo where the others guys just sit there, so their help is greatly appreciated. When I can I talk to them about this so that their next demo will be better and hopefully improve their turning experience.

Re: For Example, What is a "Flute"

David Walser

I think those who use the terms "open" and "close" to describe the flute are borrowing the terms as they are used in sports. In baseball (or golf), a hitter has a closed stance if the lead foot (and/or shoulder) is positioned such that the hitter's back is towards the pitcher. The stance is open if the pitcher can see your chest.

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

Jon Behnke

I think that trying to come up with terminology to describe turning is over complicating the process. I don't believe that most could read a description on how to make the cut on the inside of a bowl or roll a bead would actually then be able to make the cuts. Many of these cuts have compound movements, something that is felt more than anything else. In a sense, we chase the cut, we roll the tool and/ or adjust handle height to continue the cut. It can't really be described in words any more than a dance move made by a ballerina or playing a musical instrument, it's learned with time and practice. Once you learn the "feel" of a good cut you continue to make minute adjustments to continue that cut and after time muscle memory takes over and you don't have to think as much, it comes more naturally.

A good mentor is invaluable in learning to turn. Without a guide to see what is being done correctly and what is not, the struggle to achieve a good cut can become tedious to the point of frustration and discouragement.

This is where the arguments for or against carbide tools comes in. With carbide tools the turner doesn't have to learn the intricacies of conventional turning tools, the learning curve is much shorter. This is fine for some, even better in some cases. People don't all have the same hand coordination or even the time to invest to learn conventional tools. The limitations of carbide tools can show up later, then the argument becomes; should that turner have taken the time to learn conventional tools from the beginning or will they have to re-learn to eliminate any bad habits picked up from using a different style tool?

Feel

John K Jordan

>>>But it all comes down to feel. The brain has to connect to the hand and be aware of what is happening at the cutting edge.

I think feel and sight are the important things. You can learn how to start by listening, watching, and reading but you can't learn how to feel the cut without doing.

All this about riding the bevel and flutes and presentation got me thinking some time ago. To me, cutting tools are basically the same - they have a sharp edge that engages the wood. I don't see a lot of difference between 1) a straight skew edge cutting a curved spindle surface, and 2) a curved bowl gouge edge cutting a flat surface on the face of a platter.

With a beginner who has never touched a lathe the first tool I put in their hand is a skew chisel, about as simple a tool as possible. I have a spindle already turned round and let them hold the tool against the wood while I turn the lathe by hand. With a bit of verbal guidance the person very quickly learns what to do to make the edge cut and not cut, cut shallowly and cut deeply. They learn to feel the wood with the sharp edge and the bevel and learn how to move the tool to keep it cutting. After a few minutes of that I turn the lathe on at the slowest speed. After a couple of minutes of that the speed goes up. In 10-15 minutes they are making reasonable planing cuts. We typically have NO catches.

I think the simple edge of the skew goes a long way towards teaching the most basic thing about controlled cutting on the lathe. If you start with the skew, everything else is easy.

An example: this girl, 18, had just two lessons, one with the skew and spindle gouge and a few weeks later turned a nice bowl during her second lesson. She had no lathe access outside my shop. Six months later (last week) she wanted to make a present and picked a squarish small winged platter - a project that challenges some experienced turners because of the need for very controlled cuts while "cutting air". This was her third experience at the lathe and was a spectacular success. I never touched the piece except to show how to use the gouge, Hunter tool, negative rake scraper, hand scrapers, and sanding block. The finished piece is almost perfect and is getting the danish oil regimen this week. (Pictures of the piece later.)

I admit to being quite skeptical she would get very far on this piece without having a disaster. It probably would have been a disaster without learning the feel of precise tool control in the first two lessons.

BTW, I did watch every cut and made suggestions as needed. Not one time did I use the terms "open" or "closed" or about riding the bevel. I taught my philosophy of making almost every cut a practice cut. I showed, she tried, she cut. (and not one catch!) Good clean fun!

JKJ

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

John C Lucas

But when we teach you one on one wouldnt it be nice if i use tbe same language as the next teacher or demonstrater to dri e the poi t home. As my friend Al Hockenbery said its much easier to say open or close the flute after showing them.what this means than trying to tell them which part of the clock to position. Then when they hear a demonstrator say I open the flute a little they k ow what they mean.

Riding the bevel

John K Jordan

>>>I see a lot of people using the term "ride the bevel" and then I watch them cut and they are nowhere near riding the bevel.

I was thinking about this just last night. I'm making a batch of finger tops for the kindergartners, most out of hard, fine-grained exotics. With a razor-sharp spindle gouge and very slow motion most of my cuts were glass-smooth and "needed" no sanding or maybe a bit of 800 or finer (just to give an idea of the type of cut happening).

I always work by feel but this time I started watching my gouge carefully. (instead of watching the profile as a good boy should!) At no point was the bevel in contact with the wood - to me it looked like there was always the tiniest sliver of a gap behind the tip of the spindle gouge.

This begs more careful examination, perhaps by a second person or with a hi-mag camera focused on the tip with a light underneath. My initial thinking is yes, I was riding the bevel but the bevel was probably about a 100th of a inch long, possibly the length of the micro curvature I put on the very edge by stropping/polishing.

JKJ

Re: Riding the bevel

Jon Behnke

I think the term "ride the bevel" came from spindle turning where you can start a cut by holding the tool handle down, touching the bevel to the wood and slowly raising the handle until you start to get a cut.

I agree, we don't really cut with the bevel against the wood. I generally say "follow the bevel", meaning that an imaginary line parallel with the bevel is the direction of the cut. If the tool is tip in off the bevel the cut goes too deep, if the tip is out from the bevel you come out of the cut.

With a bowl gouge I'm often cutting off the tip, more on the wing, the bevel that I'm following at that point is more of a diagonal but the direction of the cut still follows that imaginary line paralleling the bevel.

Re: Riding the bevel

john lucas

John there is a bevel touching the wood. It may only be a millimeter but it's there. When you have something like a skew for example on a round cyclinder there is only a very small portion of the area behind the edge that is functioning as the bevel. when you lift the tool off of this you get a catch. Push down a little and the skew quits cutting because that very small bevel levers the cutting edge out of the cut.

Simple terms such as "open the.....

JamieDonaldson

.....flute" must be accompanied by definitions of how that action affects the operation of the tool, cause and effect. That is the essence of teaching, much better in person with a mentor/teacher than attempting to follow instructions from a book. Establishing standardized terminology is a first priority when I am teaching, such as the parts of a bowl gouge, and how each part functions when applying it to a spinning chunk of wood. Sharpening the bowl gouge reinforces the terminology in a very specific and positive manner, a practice that soon follows the introduction of the tool to beginning turners.

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

Keith T

When teaching, I don't use the term "open or closed". I refer to the flute in the "safe" position when the flute is 90 degrees to the wood. A catch is highly unlikely to occur. Now, if you roll the tool so the flute is facing up, and the cut is occurring on the side of the tool, I call this a"risky" position, more likely to catch. When the bevel us rubbing, the tool won't cut. Raising the handle causes the bevel to leave the wood, and the tool cuts.

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

Bill Blasic

Have any of you seen Chris Ramsey or JoHannes Michelsen get a catch? Have you seen their grind? Said to be uncatchable. The triple bevel grind is as close as I'll ever get to these guys grinds as they do it free hand. When I teach I am telling my students that when cutting to the right (from the lip of the bowl to the center) the cut should start to take place a 1/16 or better from the tip of the tool and this results in the flute of the gouge pointing between 1 and 2 on a clock dial and cutting the other way from right to left with the cut starting on the other side of the nose at the same place points the flute between 11 and 10 and it is just the opposite for direction on the outside of the bowl. I cannot understand this open and closed thing here and on another forum. To me if the tool is on the tool rest and the flute is pointing toward the ceiling (12 on the clock dial) it is open and turning it left or right you are closing the flute. I think I will continue showing my students where the cut begins on the tool.

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

John C Lucas

Chris and Johannes are expert turners. They wont get a catch. John Jordan and Mike Mahoney dont use his grind and they dont get a catch. I use a short bevel on my tools but its ground from only one position on the v arm so its basically a regular grind. I do get an occasional catch but its because i do something stupid not because of the grind. When i was expeimenting with a radius grind on a skew which is supposedly catch free it worked just like a regular skew. Lift the handle.too far when making a cut and you get a catch. When cutting the shoulder of a bead i found it harder to find the cut and kicked back just as easily.

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

John C Lucas

Keith. When the cut starts the tool is pulled into the wood. If there wasnt a bevel it would keep going. The area right behind the edge still functions as a bevel. Whether its convex, concave or flat it still works the same.

Whether we call an open flute 12 oclock or 3 oclock really only matters if we all call one position the same thing. Thats why we need to agree on one term. Maybe we should call it cut or not cut. As long as you and i and other teachers call it the same thing thats all that really matters. I personally still think closed flute is when the flute faces the wall such as a shear scrape but im willing to go with the flow if it will help students understand.

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

John K Jordan

I agree that the catch is because of the turner rather than the tool. If an experienced turner get's a catch he probably needs to slow down and perhaps review the basics.

The only time I've had a catch in years is when I'm not paying attention such as distracted by looking away and talking (I tend to do that when not turning in isolation...) or when I'm experimenting with a tool in a new or unusual situation just for the learning experience. I had one a few months ago while trying out a certain Hunter tool in an inappropriate orientation deep inside a piece. Learned from that!

I took a photo of Chris Ramsey's gouge. (Pretty poor cell phone photo, but hey.) I highlighted the bevel in red, about 1/16" wide.

I ground one like this (by hand) and it works well, easier to turn through a transition between the inside sides and bottom. I've been grinding the heel into a curve on gouges for a long time using the Tormek jig which makes it easy. My curves were not as extreme as the one we watched Chris grind.

JKJ

Uncatchable Bowl Gouge

Doc Green

I grind my bowl gouges so that, starting at the tip and moving out onto the wing, the bevel sort of wraps up and over the flute. This gives a grind that is very nearly uncatchable.

I've demonstrated the uncatchability of it to other turners - I jam a disk against a backing plate (friction drive, just in case) and then place the gouge against the disk with the flute closed (3 o'click). Next, I slowly rotate the tool (to initiate the cut) counterclockwise a full 180* until, finally, the flute is facing the disk (9 o'click). No catch.

The shape of the bevel supports the cut up to the point where the cutting edge, which will now be out on the wing, gets to be "in trail." After that point, there is no tendency for it to catch.

I use this to advantage when working with young turners (some only 9 years old) in the summer youth program conducted by our club. The bowl gouge I give them has a steep angle at the nose (55* or so) and the wrap-around bevel. I show them how to use the gouge and then stand back and watch. So far, zero catches!

PS: I just saw the photo JKJ posted. My grind is very similar.

Riding the bevel - or Not?

Doc Green

There is an easy test to do to determine if you are riding the bevel, no matter how small or narrow the bevel is.

If you are indeed riding the bevel, the depth of cut will not be sensitive to how hard you press the tool against the wood. The bevel prevents the tool from going deeper into the cut - up to a point: if you press really hard, the cut will deepen because you will be compressing the wood where the bevel is riding.

On the other hand, a non-bevel-riding cut will be very sensitive to the amount of pressure applied to the tool: light pressure gives a light cut; heavy pressure, deeper cut.

You may have observed that when shear scraping with the wing of a gouge in a non-bevel-riding cut, the depth of the cut is directly proportional to the amount of pressure you apply to the tool.

Re: Woodturning Vocabulary and Instruction

mikeee12345

I find it interesting that experienced wood turners find certain terms or procedures hard

to understand. This usually indicates a lack of information in the terms used when developing

a written procedure. A well written technical procedure should be easy to comprehend by a

novice reading the procedure. The terms used in the procedure should be a universally understood

phrase and not a regional or "coined" term by an individual.

With the lathe running counter-clockwise, the turner has the tool grasped in his right hand with the

left side of the flute pointed at 10:00 o'clock position, when rotating the hand in a clock-wise rotation

you will be "closing" the flute. Rotating the tool in the counter clock-wise direction will open the flute

increasing the odds that the flute wing will "catch" or cut the wood.

"Closing" = Reducing the exposure of the gouge flute wing reducing its ability to cut or catch the wood.

"Opening" = Increasing the exposure of the gouge flute wing allowing it to cut or catch the wood.