Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

Reed Gray

Confusing terms for me. Open flute to me is a continental spindle roughing gouge, and closed flute is deep V like the old Glaser tools had. I use flutes up or flutes rolled away from the cut. I always roll to 3 or 9 o'clock, never have them up as that is much more catch prone...

robo hippy

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute *LINK*

Doc Green

There is a description of this about 1/3 down in this article on the basic operation of a bowl gouge.


Article on Bowl Gouges

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

John C Lucas

Interesting. Thats not what i would call open but thats the idea and what im talking about. I want to.see what every onr else thinks.. can someone say why that would be called open vs.closed

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute *LINK*

john in lutz

As the article states an open flute is when it is turned horizontal and you can see the complete flute. A closed flute is vertical. I thinking this is right. In cutting beads and coves you start the bead with an open flute, parallel to the floor, and rotate to a closed flute, vertical to the floor, at the end of the cut. The cove starts with an closed flute and rotates to an open flute.

To prevent skating and entry cut is made with a closed flute until you have enough of a cut to have a shoulder for the bevel to ride on then the flute is slowly opened. There are a couple of videos that show the turner putting a red stripe down the flute. If you can see the stripe the flute maybe opened too much. It you cannot see the stripe the flute is closed. Hope this helps.

I found a link to a simple beads and coves video that shows the open and closed flutes in action.


Basic beads and coves

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

lyle Jamieson

Inside a bowl I use the flute facing in the direction of travel with the flute in what I would call a neutral position at 1:30 on the clock. This cuts from the rim to the bottom of the bowl to the left only. This is the sweet spot for clean efficient cuts. Closing the flute to 3:00 would make a very inefficient bevel supported cut. Opening the flute to 12:00 would be risky and likely get a catch. The bevel would come off the wood and the action would be scraping with a bowl gouge inside a bowl, not advisable to open the flute.

On the outside of a bowl I use the same sweet spot at 10:30 going left or 1:30 going right to hog off or shape with bevel supported cutting. (Do the same thing on a spindle to cut a bead or cove) Opening up to 12:00 will result in an aggressive cut and risk a catch again in a scraping mode at the tip. Here is where the closed flute 3:00 works well on the outside of bowls for scraping or sheer scraping with the flute pointing at the wood surface, closed. The cutting action is scrapping with the wing area of the edge.

I don't know where the open/closed terms originated but has been used for decades.

So the general agreement is

john lucas

Open flute on the inside of a bowl is 3, closed is 12. Outside a bowl if I read you right the open flute would be 9 with closed 12. Then what would you call it if your doing a shear scrape? To me that would be closed. still confused but want to get this right or at least be in agreement with most turners.

Re: So the general agreement is

Reed Gray

I had thought that open flute means flute is pointed up, and closed flute is flute pointed away from the cut. It always has confused me. I don't need any help getting confused...

robo hippy

Re: So the general agreement is

Clifton C

I am most interested in this. My take is that opened is with the flute straight up as in 12 O'clock and closed would be with the flute rolled over to the left (9 O'clock) or to the right (3 O'clock). It does not have to be shown in relation to a bowl or spindle, it can be shown just by resting a gouge on a tool rest, tool parallel to the floor, flute up at 12 O'clock, opened, flute at 9 or 3, closed.

cc

Still confused

john lucas

I don't see how a flute positioned at 3 oclock on the inside of a bowl is any more open than a flute that is almost straight up. I won't say 12 because I think we can agree depending on the shape of the wing that would be a catch. If you have a U shaped gouge with no wing, I guess some call that a traditional grind. You can cut with the flute almost straight up because your cutting with a shear cut on the upright of the U.

What I would call a closed flute is with the flute toward the wall you are cutting such as in a shear scrape. An open flute to me would be any position where the flute is pointing away from the wall, either up, out, or even upside down. I sometimes demo with a spindle roughing gouge turned upside down and using the wing as a skew. I do this to show that a proper cutting angle is still a cutting angle no matter what the tool. How would this fit into the open/closed flute description. That's why I think open or closed flute is a misnomer. Give me your thoughts on this Please.

Re: Still confused

bill tucker

Now ya'll are starting to confuse me because some comments are the exact opposite of each other, or so it seems. Let me throw out another analogy: think of the flute as a long vessel....open, it will hold water....closed, it won't. So, with both sides of the vessel pointing up, (open), it will hold water. Tip it over on its side and the water spills out (closed). Does this work for you?

bill

Closed = Neutral = Not cutting

Doc Green

A flute is closed when it is oriented relative to the wood so that no cutting occurs.

This is shown in one of the photos in the article I linked in my post above.

The terms "open" and "closed" are not applicable if there is no neutral position, such as when shear scraping with the wing of a gouge.

A similar confusion exists regarding the direction of the current flow in a conductor carrying electricity. Historically, the direction of the current is taken to be from positive to negative, but electrons flow in the opposite direction, from negative to positive.

When teaching, I never used the word "current" when trying to establish the direction, but used "electron flow" instead.

That is, if the terminology is confusing, don't use it unless you carefully define the terms. You have seen the different interpretations in this thread, so I would conclude that "open" and "closed" are not good words to use when describing the orientation of the flute.

My $0.02, that's all.

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

Jake niedling

John - I think this is being way over thought. Let's keep it simple. I don't think about it relative to what type of cut I am making like the inside or outside of a bowl. It is simply a reference point that is common for everyone. A drawing is a much better way to convey this reference. So when someone says to close or open the flute a little, they know what to do. 😇

Very simple definition, a flute is......

JamieDonaldson

......OPEN when you can see it, and CLOSED when you can't!(:-D)

Re: So the general agreement is

lyle Jamieson

John, you have used two postings saying just the opposite, one correct and this one wrong. Cliff, Reed, Bill, Doc, and Jamie all have it correctly described.

Re: Closed = Neutral = Not cutting

Reed Gray

Hmm, still confused. I cut with my flutes closed, as in rolled over to 3 or 9 o'clock all the time, so, ???? The reason for rolling them over is for a higher shear angle on the nose of the flute for a cleaner cut. I do prefer a more open flute shape for my gouges, so half round or parabolic, or U, or what ever, but not a deep V ever. I never use the terms open or closed as they are confusing. Flute up, or rolled over away from the cut.

robo hippy

Now that makes sense Doc.

John C Lucas

Closed no cutting. Open cutting.

Re: Now that makes sense Doc.

lyle Jamieson

I sheer scrape with the flute closed.

Terminology

John K Jordan

>>>......OPEN when you can see it, and CLOSED when you can't!(:-D)

Open to the sky? Open to collect rain?

Perhaps Open/Closed is too simplistic and confusing since it is binary, either, or, when in use the angle varies widely. Seems like most of the time I hear the words "almost" and "nearly" with these words. Worse, different people use the terms to mean different things.

I don't use the terminology at all. I think instead of the angle(s) relative to the wood rather than to the environment. This works for all tool positions on the pieces of all shapes and works for skews as well as gouges.

JKJ

Re: Very simple definition, a flute is......

lyle Jamieson

I use the terms all the time while I am teaching to find and keep the sweet spot. I say open or close the flute instead of having to say, example, "Use your handle hand and twist your wrist clockwise"

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

Don Stephan

This is all very confusing. If I understand correctly, the "flute" is the negative space left when metal is removed from a round bar. "Open" is when the flute would hold the most water - the cutting tip is closest to the bottom of the round bar. Beyond that, it can be important to indicate not only that the flute is rotated from fully open ("twelve o'clock), but how much it is rotated and which way, clockwise or counterclockwise. If one consistently calls "open" 12 o'clock then the flute orientation can always be identified easily and accurately by referring to a clock face, and there would be no advantage to using the term "closed." My two cents.

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

Clifton C

I think you are right, however, if I'm demonstrating a cut inside a bowl I might say something like "Watch how when I open the gouge a bit, it starts to cut" or, "See, I'm starting to take too big a cut, so I'm going to slightly close the flute, see how the cut gets lighter, not quite so heavy?" Along the same line, if I'm watching a student cutting inside a bowl, I cannot say, your flute is at 0136 and you want to be more like 0132. But I could say, try opening that flute a bit. All this is assuming we have discussed terminology (and we have) and are on the same page. We can say, "raise the tool rest" or "don't forget to tighten the quill" or You're off the bevel" and, if we are speaking the same language, we understand each other, it's easier to communicate. I like this discussion, I think it's a good one. (Thanks John)

cc

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

john lucas

the definition that seems to get the most votes especially from the teachers out there is that a flute is closed when it is rotated so that the edge won't cut. On the inside of a bowl this would be with the flute at 3 oclock. ON the outside the flute would be at 9. The edge of the tool would pretty much vertical and consequently it is not cutting. Rotating the tool slightly so that the edge starts to cut is called opening the flute.

What would we call it when you are shear scraping with the flute pointing toward the wood. That is what I used to call a closed flute but doesn't work with the definition above.

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

Barry Irby

I have not read the other responses and I am somewhat dyslexic.

About 18 years ago my son and I took a class from David Ellsworth at Arrowmont. I bought my Bowl gouge there and had zero experience with it. David said "Point the flute in the direction you want it to go...." As is often the case, I completely misunderstood and struggled mightily. Somehow I thought that meant to point it like a finger and gave no consideration to position of the flute. I was hanging on as if my life were at stake and it may have been. David came over and took the tool from me and with just the tips of his fingers on one hand on the end of the handle made the cut. It was a revelation. It's still my favorite tool.

Some of us don't get the message verbally.

Re: Can you describe open flute vs.closed flute

mikeee12345

The English language seems to be part of the issue as many words have multiple definitions and

each person has been taught by various resources that used different terms to describe the same thing.

With more people using e-mail and text messaging and abbreviating words the number of people mastering the verbal and written language could diminish over time. Totally, for sure! LOL, LMAO, :-(