Carbide Tools

Re: Carbide Tools

David Walser

Mark -- With only one exception that I'm aware of, carbide tools are scrapers. The advantage is the tools remain sharp for a long time. The disadvantage is a HSS scraper with a fresh burr may cut more cleanly than will a carbide tool. At least, that's what many experienced turners believe. (It may be that the experienced turner is simply getting better results with the HSS scraper because of the greater familiarity with that tool.)

Carbide tools are popular -- particularly with new turners -- because they have a shorter learning curve and don't require learning how to sharpen. Those aren't small advantages. Having first learned with gouges, when I bought a couple of carbide tools (before they became popular), I found using them unsatisfactory. They did a good job in rouging a turning to shape, but the finish off the tool wasn't nearly what I'd come to expect from a gouge. I thought I was using the tool wrong. A few years later I saw an Easy Tool demo at a the Craft Supplies booth at a symposium. The finish left by the Easy Tool was the one I found lacking. That's not a small disadvantage.

The one exception to the carbide-tools-are-scrapers rule are the Hunter carbide tools. Hunter tools can be used in scraping or in bevel-rubbing mode. Used as a cutting tool (not a scraper), they will leave a finish as good or better than a gouge or skew. Hunter carbide bits have a very small flute that allows them to be used for bevel rubbing cuts. I think, but haven proven, that the flute also makes them better at scraping than other carbides. The only drawback, in my experience, with the Hunter Tools is that I can take a larger cut with a gouge. But, the Hunter's excel at finish cuts.

HTH

Re: Carbide Tools

john lucas

All of the ones that are flat on top are scrapers. They also don't hold a keen edge for very long so they turn into somewhat dull scrapers after a while since you can't raise a burr on them. You can resharpen them however with diamond hones.

Some of the Hunter tools can be use as bevel rubbing tools and have truely superior cutting qualities. The cutting edge is about 30 degrees so the cut cleaner than most tools in your arsenal when used correctly. The Hunter Hercules and Osprey can be used as scrapers, bevel rubbing, or shear scraping. The #4 and #5 are purely bevel rubbing. The Hercules or Osprey used as scrapers will flat out remove wood. Great for roughing. Then switch to bevel rubbing to clean it up and you a very versatile tool The new Clewes tools handle like scrapers but cut cleaner and are virtually catch free. The small hollowing tool that fits in a Jamieson handle will just flat out remove wood and of course never needs sharpening. The Hunter tools can't be resharpened but they hold an edge for a long time.

You can find my videos on the Hunter tools by going to youtube and typing in john60lucas/hunter

here is the Hunter Hercules  *LINK*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzrLN8SQ8ms

Re: Carbide Tools

John K Jordan

>>>To me they are all scrapers. Am I wrong? Advantage? Are they just used by people that do not know how to use a gouge?

Educate me.

As the others said, if you mean the flat topped carbide cutters, usually round or square, they are scrapers. Even some that are not flat topped but with a flute at the edge are made for metal cutting and work horribly on wood. IMO. One advantage is the tools are easy to make yourself and cheap, very cheap. The short answer is they are often used by the uneducated. Now you are educated, or at least have some opinions to evaluate.

I don't want to be unfair but I have observed that some people get started on using them as beginners because they are so easy to use - just stick them into the wood, and make something the first time, no learning curve. However they may stay with them and never learn to use cutting tools since that takes some effort and practice. I have no problem with this since they are turning wood and happy with the results (or they would learn a different way.)

The problem is the quality of the cut can be horrible and require a lot of sanding which in itself is a problem.

As mentioned, the Hunter tools are entirely different. I have a drawer full but use the Hunter Hercules more than any other one The big Hercules is massive and has no problem with vibration.. I do use it as a scraper for roughing then use it in the cutting mode for much cleaner cuts, both with spindles and face turning. The cut is not as good as a razor sharp gouge on softer woods but I prefer it for some things. The harder the wood, the cleaner the cut.

The little set of Hunter hollowing tools are also very nice for ornaments and small boxes and vessels.

JKJ

The Hunter #5 is a real go-to tool.....

JamieDonaldson

...for me when hollowing, as it can easily slice end grain and make a smooth pull cut up the insides of a vessel, and I know you "were" a hollow form whiz! Is that now what you will be returning to as you get back in the game?

Thanks

mkauder

Mostly, I was talking about the tools I saw on YouTube on the outside of bowls/vases. Not so much the hollowing, as for the most part, all hollowing (except maybe for us Segmenters) is scraping.

What got me wondering was a video on Youtube of a young man making a large segmented vase. When I got back into turning, I have many new friends that knew nothing about it, and apparently went out to Google and searched Segmented Turning, and found this video, and sent me the link. While is end product was OK (I have issues with the shape, etc), I was disturbed that I never saw a gouge.

I guess, all things go full circle. Written Language started with Pictographs and Hieroglyphics, and is not at Emoji. Woodturning with scraping, move to gouges, and are back at scraping...........

Thank to you all for educating me.

Mark

Re: Thanks

John C Lucas

I still use a bowl gouge,spindle gouge and skew for most things. They are just more versatile. I use the Hunter tools mostly for special needs whe i need that super clean cut.

Re: Thanks

Mike Stafford

The Hunter #5 swan neck is a great hollowing tool and it will send out plumes of curly shavings once you get the hang of riding on the bevel. Otherwise it is a scraper.

I use the #1 set for the initial hollowing of boxes and ort bowls and then switch to the #5 swan to get the cleanest cut. On dense hardwoods the finish will need little or no sanding depending on how well I control the tool.

Re: Thanks

Bill Blasic

Mike Hunter continues to roll out new tools to his arsenal including two new deep hollowing bars. I most definitely agree with what John, John and Mike have said.

Re: Carbide Tools

mkauder

I have always understood the Scraping type tools for Hollowing, naturally. Cutters on Hollowing was the holy grail. But scrapers on the outside, is ...........crazy, except in a shear scraping mode, and then it is really cutting.

Mark

Re: Carbide Tools

Alan Zenreich

If one uses a flat carbide cutter in a scraping orientation, then yes, it's a scraper. If you tip it up on end, then it's a shear cutter or acts like a skew.

It's all in the way you present the tool to the workpiece.

After all, a skew is just a negative rake scraper (if you lay it down flat on the toolrest), right? < ducking >

Re: Carbide Tools

John C Lucas

A flat carbide tool doesnt have a burr so it makes a lousy shear scraper. A fresh burr on a High Speed Steel tool cuts and is not scraping.

Negative rake scraper

John C Lucas

I need to do a test some day and see what the difference is between a sharp skew and a negative rake scraper with a burr. They both seem to take a curl off. I'll try that today. Im working on a dry box elder bowl. Its very difficult to cut that stuff without some tearout so should make a good test.

Re: Carbide Tools

Alan Zenreich

One of the best examples of watching flat cutters in the hands of someone (Steve Sherman) who knows what he's doing is this video (starting about 2 minutes into the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_PHDBLi-tA

Note that the Nano Revolution tools he is using are no longer available for sale, but the technique shown in this video should give some ideas to those who are only using their carbide cutters, flat against the toolrest.

How was the surface?

John K Jordan

>>>Nano Revolution tools

Is the round cutter he is using a flat-faced carbide cutter? It looks concave in some of the shots, a bit like a mild Hunter bit. If so, it probably can't be compared to a flat cutter. My only experience with flat carbide cutters was with the Eazy Wood tools and I was not overly impressed with the finish off the tool, to state it mildly.

Also, I may have missed it but I didn't see where he rotated the work for a closeup after cutting with the round cutter. It is difficult to evaluate the surface otherwise. The only time I saw him rotate the work was after cutting the beads and they looked horrible to me.

I often use the Hunter cutters for shaping small spindles in the "bevel-rubbing" mode like that - I was showing a gentleman yesterday by cutting beads and coves in a piece of maple with the small Hercules tool. The cutter is so sharp that the surface cut so cleanly it looked polished. I get a similar surface when cutting hard woods like cocobolo and ebony and with cast acrylic.

The Hunter cutters are quite a bit smaller so smaller detail is probably easier, although a planing cut on a cylinder or taper does take a steady hand, steadier than using a skew.

JKJ

Re: How was the surface?

Alan Zenreich

John, the carbide cutter in the video is flat, not cupped.

Re: Carbide Tools

David Walser

If one uses a flat carbide cutter in a scraping orientation, then yes, it's a scraper. If you tip it up on end, then it's a shear cutter or acts like a skew.

Kinda, but not really. A skew combines two approaches to getting a clean cut: 1) cutting at a shear angle to the rotation of the wood, and, 2) using the bevel to support the fibers being cut. If you hold your scraper on edge so that the wood approaches the edge at a shear angle, you will be taking advantage of the the first of the two approaches combined into the skew. However, you won't be taking advantage of having a bevel support the fibers being cut -- increasing the probability of getting tear-out as the fibers are lifted out of the wood rather than being cut cleanly.

Shear scraping can leave a dramatically better surface than regular scraping. However, it's not the same type of cutting action as a skew and will seldom produce as good a result.

By the way, most gouges used in bevel rubbing mode do not take advantage of cutting at a shear angle. This is why a shear scrape can sometimes improve the surface left by a gouge and why a skew -- in the hands of someone who knows how to use it -- typically leaves a better surface than a gouge.

Re: Carbide Tools

Alan Zenreich

David, yes, you can engage the bevel in many round carbide bits.

Did you see the video I mentioned?

Re: Carbide Tools

Alan Zenreich

Just to be clear... I am not advocating that folks use carbide cutters.

What I take issue with is when people say "they are just scrapers".

It's really all about the way the cutting edge is presented to the work.

I mainly use conventional gouges... but for much of my jewelry work I prefer round carbide cutters (I have used the Nano Revolution tools for about 5 years).

Because I am clearly in it for the toys:

I recently received a new set up tools with multiple cutters made from diamond. I had some hands on time with them and and ordered the "Mini" set the AAW symposium in Kansas City, and hope to test them and made a video ASAP.

http://blacklinetoolcompany.com/

Re: Carbide Tools

john lucas

He is rubbing the bevel on that round cutter. With that short bevel it takes a skilled hand and he is obviously skilled. On Mike Hunters tools we ground the support metal flush with the cutter so you have a longer bevel which makes it easier for new turners. His beading tool is just like the homemade one i made and it leaves a terrible finish. The D way beading tool is superior to any others I've tried. It's mostly because of the way it's presented to the wood.

My problem with the other flat carbide tools is they simply don't hold what I call a sharp edge very long. They hold a cutting edge for a long time and are great for roughing but when you want a surface that needs very little sanding they won't do it. On the plus side they can be sharpened with a diamond hone on the top. The Hunter cutters hold a sharp edge far longer and a slightly less than sharp for a very long time, however they can't be resharped.

Those look like very interesting tools. I'm taking a carbide cutter into my micro photographer to be photographed at very high magnification to see how it compares to the tools other metals that I sharpened. I will try and let you know how that comes out.

Re: Carbide Tools

David Walser

Alan -- I'm sorry to have misunderstood what you were saying. If you're riding the bevel on a carbide cutter, then it would produce a bevel supported cut. The only difference between it and a skew would then be the angle at which the two blades are sharpened. The carbide tool would have a very blunt angle compared to a typical skew.

Depending on the wood (and other factors), a blunt angle may leave a better surface than a more acute angle. However, in most situations, the "sharper" edge of a skew is apt to leave a better surface than the blunter edge of a typical carbide cutter.

Re: Carbide Tools

Dick Coers

I think one benefit of traditional tools is often neglected when comparing to carbide tools. It's the ability of producing fair curves and long tapers when riding on the bevel. Even when a Hunter tool is rubbed, you don't get same the benefit of the long bevels.

Re: Carbide Tools

Alan Zenreich

David... I knew that we were not disagreeing... it just needed a bit of clarification.

Re: Carbide Tools

john lucas

I don't think a long bevel has any real advantages. I ground a spare gouge with a long bevel and then I have my normal one with a very short bevel. So far I don't see any real advantage to the long bevel at all. The short bevel on the other hand is nice inside bowls. Outside I don't see much difference. The Johannes grind is very short and slightly rounded over and many users thing it reduces the catches. I haven't noticed that yet but then I don't get catches with the long bevel either. It may just be me but I have turned several bowls and couple of hollow vessels switching back and forth between the two gouges about every few cuts. I can hear a difference in pitch when cutting with them but can't really tell much difference in use.