AAW Policy on Fractal Burning

Thanks for the heads up, Roger

GaryG in MD

I just posted it to all our local club members, some of whom may have been considering this very dangerous technique.

When I was a kid and ham radio operator in the 50s, I tried to make a plasma torch like one I saw on the cover of Popular Mechanics (or wherever) -- a high-powered oscillator with a hand-bent copper tubing output coil. Luckily for me, it didn't oscillate!! ...GG

Glad we got our demo in last night!

Re: Glad we got our demo in last night!

Roger Chandler

Our club had one at the April meeting........3 guys all did their version. Two were units made from microwave transformers and one a commercial unit from Conestoga. I briefly contemplated getting the Conestoga unit, but decided that the embellishment it produced was not worth the risk in my own opinion. I will stick to more traditional embellishments when I feel I need to add something.

I spoke to the Conestoga guy in Saratoga

Steven Antonucci

I think his unit is the least likely to cause death in the event something unplanned occurs, but I would still never, under any circumstances, ever have the two electrodes in my hands even with gloves and rubber underwear on.

In our club demo, the guy tacks in brad nails and then alligator clips to them. The transformer sits on the end of an extension cord, and the plug end stays in his hand while he works on the object. When he is ready to zap, he walks 15' away to where the power strip is, plugs in the extension cord, and the tuns on the power strip.

Lowering risk is a good thing.

S

least likely to cause death

Dick Coers

Now that is a recommendation I'll pay attention to!

using two hands

John K Jordan

>>>I would still never, under any circumstances, ever have the two electrodes in my hands...

I have some experience with high voltage and high current. One of our safety "rules", besides the protective clothing and insulated tools and some environmental and psychological things, is to work with one hand behind your back. Completing a circuit through the heart is an undesirable accident.

A guy I knew woke up on the floor. At least he woke up.

JKJ

Re: least likely to cause death

mikeee12345

So what happens if someone gets killed while using a wood lathe?

The only time we can talk about wood turning is if we are warning against the use of a lathe?

I would be willing to wager more people have died while using lathes than burning fractals on wood.

Like anything...

Steven Antonucci

Your risk goes way up if you don't know what you are doing?

How many people die from chainsaw accidents every year?

I posted a video from out club meeting on Facebook live stream last night, and over and over we reiterate that you die if you do it wrong. I think that the way he has built in a number of steps before power is applied really makes it a safe process. You literally have to do about 4 things wrong to kill yourself...

S

Depends on what you turn?

Dick Coers

I doubt if anyone dies at the lathe from making a mistake when turning pens, boxes, or candle sticks. So the statistical chance of death goes down. But with the fractal burning, every time you flip the switch you can die when making a mistake.

Re: using two hands

mikeee12345

Statistically you are more likely to die in a car wreck driving to your club meeting.

Do we all decide to stay at home and hide in a safe place?

Most of us on this site have worked around power equipment most of our lives.

We all learned how to work safely around dangerous equipment or we quietly took up stamp collecting.

Our society is sadly devolving to the lowest common denominator, if one dumb ass dictates what the

remainder of society is free to do we are all screwed. I appreciate what little freedom I still have, I don't

care to give any more away without a fight.

I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

Roger Chandler

Since the "official policy" of the AAW is not to allow it at any of their events, and "strongly recommends" that any AAW local chartered club does not either, the if something bad did occur, would that void the clubs insurance because they did not follow official protocol, and held a fractal burning demo anyway?

Re: using two hands

David Walser

Statistically you are more likely to die in a car wreck driving to your club meeting.

You've all heard the old joke about lies. There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Yes, driving a car and operating a lathe are both inherently dangerous activities. And, both cause way more injuries and death than are caused by fractal burning. But, that statistic (the total injuries from driving and turning) does not in anyway mean fractal burning is less dangerous than driving or turning. It just means more hours are spent by the total population driving and turning than are spent fractal burning. By the standard of which causes more injuries, sky diving is less dangerous than going to church!

Is AAW's new policy wise? I have doubts on that score. Its really hard to get information back into the bottle once its been poured out -- particularly with all those videos on YouTube! So, the membership might be better served by warning us of the dangers and teaching how it might be done more safely (not safely, just more safely). Personally, I had already decided not to pursue fractal burning. the process looked cool, but I found I'd liked the process more than the result.

Sure, there are a lot more cars

Dick Coers

Comparing the statistical likelihood of a car accident to dying by fractal burning is pretty far from an accurate comparison. How many of your neighbors fractal burn? How many drive cars? How many of them work inside a live breaker box? No one is keeping you from fractal burning, the AAW just doesn't want to sanction it. It's been my experience that collectively, wood turners know very little about electricity. I agree with the policy.

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

David Walser

Roger -- That would depend on the terms of the insurance policy. I suspect that the current policy is silent on the topic. I also suspect that a future policy will not be silent and will NOT cover any injuries caused by fractal burning. The carrier may have been behind AAW's new policy. The carrier likely views fractal burning demonstrations as a new risk that they aren't being compensated for covering.

Re: Sure, there are a lot more cars

John C Lucas

Many young turners not only dont know anything about electricity they also dont know anything about mechanical devices. Im not putting them down they just didnt grow.up on the farm.or working on cars or even bicycles. I find i cant assume anything when teaching. The women in my classes are.often more.mechanically skilled.than some of the men simply because of their background. When i grew up we did any maintenane on the house. Change a.wall plug, fix the plumbing,change.the brakes on the car. Today everyone just calls an expert. Truth be told i try not to.touch mmuch on my car anymore.

So tea hing something as dangerous as fractal burning should only be done by close.criends who know.each others capabilities.

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

Barry L Elder

It would seem that we have lost too many woodturners who supposedly knew what they were doing, but did it anyway without the appropriate SAFETY equipment. So, to all you "Stuper-Men, good luck at pushing your "luck". Make sure your funereal expenses are all paid!

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

mikeee12345

I would assume this issue was reviewed by AAW lawyers and that was their opinion

based on potential liability. So by keeping the average person in the dark as to proper

safety methods to use while fractal burning there will be a larger number of deaths.

Nice!

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

Joe Fleming

Mike, Your logic escapes me. The AAW decides that fractal burning is inherently dangerous so recommends not to do it. I do not see how teaching people how to do something that is deemed inherently dangerous is a smart thing.

Just because some people think an effect is interesting does not mean that the technique should be taught, nor should any organization be obligated to provide instruction. I'll bet there are less than 100 people doing or trying fractal burning in the turning world right now. Two dead people is 2% of the participants. Seems like a pretty risky thing to do so I agree with the AAW on this one. Joe

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

mikeee12345

So we have a 100 or so individuals that are using fractal burning on wood items.

Would it be helpful to explain the dangers and the proper precautions to be taken,

or should we leave these people in the dark because "we can't talk about the process".

This comes down to the AAW wanting to limit their exposure to liability.

I thought the AAW was there to educate and mentor members in the guild.

Keeping people in the dark does not make them safer. We will have more people guessing

on the proper method and safety equipment needed to perform this process safely.

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

Dick Coers

No body is keeping anyone from learning how to do this. You just can't do it at an AAW sanctioned meeting or publication. Go to someone's shop to learn! What do you think we did before the AAW? Or even the woodturner's that don't belong to the AAW?

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

Joe Fleming

You are assuming that the best information the AAW can provide is instruction in the technique. I disagree. I think the best information we can tell our members is that the process is unsafe and, therefore, not recommended. That is the best information we can offer. To try to teach you this technique would be irresponsible and unethical in my opinion.

If you decide to do it anyway, don't ask the AAW how to do this unsafe thing because the AAW believes it is too dangerous. If you insist on doing it, however, you are on your own to find instruction.

Good discussion, BTW, all around. Joe

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

Ivan Clark

There are 7 pages of results on youtube for fractal wood burning. Demonstrations include the one by Tim Yoder. It sounds like either 50% of the people in the world doing this are posting videos on youtube or the 100 estimate is low by an order of magnitude or more.

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

Ivan Clark

>I think the best information we can tell our members is

>that the process is unsafe and, therefore, not recommended.

>That is the best information we can offer.

I respectfully disagree. The best information that we can give people is WHY it is unsafe and WHY AAW does not recommend it.

There are many things that demonstrators do at demos that are patently unsafe. Turning bowls at thousands of RPMs without a safety shield or a face shield in a packed room, for example. The AAW does try to tell people why this is not recommended. It stops short of saying that the demonstrator should not have a stage at the next symposium.

Re: I Wonder if AAW Insurance would cover club?

Joe Fleming

Maybe we are both right. I said 100 woodturners. I did not count all wood artists. Besides "Napalm Porter" and "doublereno" are represented a few dozen times or more. But there are upwards of a 1000 videos. So discounting duplicate posters, maybe 500 wood artists. More pervasive than I imagined.